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this is an episode that's been almost

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one year in the making the theo locution

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of donald hoffman and yoshibok both of

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whom should be extremely familiar to you

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if you've surveyed this channel before

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as we've done an unduly technical dive

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into donald hoffman's research papers

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and we've spoken to yoshibach several

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times before as well if you're

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unfamiliar donald hoffman is a professor

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at the university of irvine california

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studying consciousness and evolutionary

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psychology using mathematical models and

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yoshibak is a cognitive scientist

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recognized in the field of ai as being

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exceptionally ingenious both have

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unexampled views of consciousness and

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free will which harmonize and contradict

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in pre-possessing and informative ways

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click on the timestamp in the

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description if you'd like to skip this

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intro my name is kirchey mungle i'm a

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torontonian filmmaker with a background

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in mathematical physics dedicated to the

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explication of the variegated terrain of

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theories of everything from a

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theoretical physics perspective but as

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well as analyzing consciousness and

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seeing its potential connection to

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fundamental reality whatever that is

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essentially this channel is dedicated to

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exploring the under nature of reality

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the constitutional laws that govern it

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provided those laws exist at all and are

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even noble to us if you enjoy witnessing

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and engaging with others on the topics

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of psychology consciousness physics etc

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the channel's themes then do consider

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going to the discord and the subreddit

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which are linked in the description

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there's also a link to the patreon that

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is patreon.com

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kerchamungle if you'd like to support

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this podcast as the patrons and the

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sponsors are the only reasons that i'm

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able to have podcasts of this quality

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and this depth given that i can do this

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now full time thanks to both the patrons

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and the sponsors support speaking of

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sponsors there are two the first sponsor

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is brilliant during the winter break i

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decided to brush up on some of the

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fundamentals of physics particularly

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with regard to information theory as i'd

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like to interview chiara marletto on

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constructor theory which is heavily

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based in information theory now

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information theory is predicated on

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entropy at least there's a fundamental

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formula for entropy so i ended up taking

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the brilliant course i challenged myself

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to do one lesson per day and i took the

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course's random variable distributions

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and knowledge

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uncertainty what i loved is that despite

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knowing the formula for entropy which is

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essentially hammered into you as an

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undergraduate it seems like it comes

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down from the sky arbitrarily and with

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brilliance for the first time i was able

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to see how the formula for entropy which

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you're seeing right now is actually

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extremely natural and it'd be strange to

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define it in any other manner there are

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plenty of courses and you can even learn

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group theory which is what's being

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referenced when you hear that the

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standard model is predicated on u1 cross

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su 2 cross su 3 those are league groups

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continuous lead groups visit

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brilliant.org

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tow t-o-e to get 20 off an annual

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subscription and i recommend that you

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don't stop before four lessons i think

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you'll be greatly surprised at the ease

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at which you can now comprehend subjects

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you previously had a difficult time

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grocking the second sponsor is algo now

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algo is an end-to-end supply chain

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hussein who's been a huge supporter of

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this podcast since near its inception in

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fact amjad has his own podcast on ai and

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consciousness and business growth and if

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you'd like to support the tow podcast

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then visit the link in the description

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to see amjad's podcast because

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subscribing to him or at least visiting

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supports the toe podcast indirectly

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thank you and enjoy

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okay this should be live if you can see

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this type in animaniacs into the chat

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animaniacs

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great there are already 275 people

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watching firstly it's a distinct honor

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to be here thank you both don and yosha

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i appreciate it tremendously in the

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audience does as well this theories of

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everything

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project is about exploring grand unified

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theories in theoretical physics as you

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know and understanding consciousness and

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free will i see those are at least

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intuit that those are integrally tied

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and it's those

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the latter two topics that bring us here

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don

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of free will as well as how you view

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consciousness and you mentioned that you

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would like to give an overview of your

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point of view on science and theories of

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everything in general

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and then yosha

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you'll join afterward and commend

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donald or amend him and then i'll pretty

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much shut my mouth and allow you both to

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speak to one another interjecting only

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seldom

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okay thank you kurt and good to see you

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yosha um

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my my attitude about science

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is

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sort of like what

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newton famously said

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right he said that toward the end of his

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career that he thought of himself as

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like

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a little boy

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playing on the on the seashore looking

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at uh some nice

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pebbles and shells while

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all before him lay the um

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the vast ocean of of truth that was

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undiscovered

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and

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good attitude for us as scientists to

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have is that

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as much as we've done

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um

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we've really not even begun to explore

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the possibilities of truth and what's

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interesting is that newton's followers

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uh famously

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didn't

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follow him on that

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in the late

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19th century a lot of newtonians thought

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that it was pretty much over they had a

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theory of everything

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there were a few little wrinkles

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you know there was the you know

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problem with michaelson morally

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experiment and

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and black body radiation wasn't quite

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working out

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according to newton but they thought

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that that was pretty minor stuff and

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they would figure that all out and

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physics was pretty much done

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and and we've discovered that no physics

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would was hardly

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beginning there was so much more to

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science

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cannot have a theory of everything

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in principle

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that we will always be on newton's

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seashore we'll always be

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like newton the the little boy playing

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with pebbles and

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and shells while the vast uh truth lays

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undiscovered before us the ocean of

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truth and and it's for a principled

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reason

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that

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scientific theories

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if you look at how

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they're structured we start with

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a good scientific theory tells you

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exactly what its assumptions are this is

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what i'm assuming

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these are the derivation rules that i

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allow

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and then everything about the theory

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follows from that but that that theory

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doesn't explain its assumptions the

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assumptions are what's

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assumed so einstein in this special

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theory of relativity assumes you know

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that light

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uh travels at the same speed for for all

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observers in all inertial reference

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frames

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but

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that theory doesn't tell you what light

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is

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whole life studying it and i still have

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no idea what what light really is

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and and so

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we're in that situation as scientists

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where

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um what we're doing is valuable it's

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it's absolutely essential because we're

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being precise about our assumptions

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we're being precise about what they

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entail

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but there's going to be a fundamental

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limit and and

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my guess is that science

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um as valuable as it is is one of the

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most

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important advances that humanity has

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made

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um will always and only scratch the

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surface beyond the seashore with with

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newton while the vast ocean um lays

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undiscovered and um so that that's sort

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of when so when we talk about theories

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of consciousness and free will and so

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forth going forward

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i do it with sort of a very modest look

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at my own ideas the the ideas are going

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to be very much

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in

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the framework of these are the best

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ideas we've come up with so far

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of course

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there's going to be much much deeper

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work ahead um and much more to to

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discover ahead so we just have to

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as scientists be precise about the

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current assumptions we're making and why

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we're making them and what what follows

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from them but be completely open to

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radical

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new understandings

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your view on consciousness and free will

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so

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um

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in in a nutshell

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um my views on consciousness

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are

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so physicalist approaches we'll say that

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we will start with space-time

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and and some of its contents

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particles neurons neural systems neural

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networks that

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um

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and

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those will be so that's a scientific

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theory which those are our assumptions

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space time and its contents are

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fundamental

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and particular contents may be very very

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important for example dynamical systems

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of

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on neural networks for example

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and from that we're going to try to to

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boot up um

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subjective experience um

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and and that's perfectly a fine project

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to try to do uh what we you know what i

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would want from that physicalist

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approach would be um

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not a hand wave but but a specific

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accomplishment so you know how do we

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start with um dynamical systems of

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neural networks and come up with the

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taste of chocolate

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or the smell of garlic or something

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specific some specific conscious

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experience but we say my my scientific

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00:09:58,470 --> 00:09:55,920
theory says why this

289
00:10:00,470 --> 00:09:58,480
dynamical system of activity in

290
00:10:02,310 --> 00:10:00,480
neurons or in computer system or

291
00:10:03,829 --> 00:10:02,320
something like that must be the taste of

292
00:10:05,269 --> 00:10:03,839
chocolate it could not be the smell of

293
00:10:07,350 --> 00:10:05,279
garlic and these are the principal

294
00:10:09,269 --> 00:10:07,360
reasons why if we if something like that

295
00:10:11,350 --> 00:10:09,279
were on the table i would be impressed

296
00:10:12,790 --> 00:10:11,360
until then i'm not impressed

297
00:10:15,670 --> 00:10:12,800
so so

298
00:10:17,350 --> 00:10:15,680
and there's nothing on the table uh yet

299
00:10:19,110 --> 00:10:17,360
that can do that

300
00:10:21,269 --> 00:10:19,120
so that's one reason why i've been

301
00:10:22,550 --> 00:10:21,279
casting around and and looking for a

302
00:10:25,110 --> 00:10:22,560
different direction

303
00:10:26,389 --> 00:10:25,120
um it's not starting with the with the

304
00:10:29,110 --> 00:10:26,399
physical

305
00:10:30,870 --> 00:10:29,120
but starting um somewhere else and

306
00:10:34,069 --> 00:10:30,880
partly because and we can talk about

307
00:10:36,150 --> 00:10:34,079
this in greater detail

308
00:10:37,830 --> 00:10:36,160
because our best scientific theories

309
00:10:40,310 --> 00:10:37,840
right now namely um

310
00:10:42,949 --> 00:10:40,320
[Music]

311
00:10:45,190 --> 00:10:42,959
quantum field theory and and general

312
00:10:47,350 --> 00:10:45,200
relativity on the one hand

313
00:10:48,630 --> 00:10:47,360
and an evolution of natural selection on

314
00:10:50,230 --> 00:10:48,640
the other

315
00:10:51,990 --> 00:10:50,240
both

316
00:10:55,269 --> 00:10:52,000
entail

317
00:10:57,750 --> 00:10:55,279
that space-time is not fundamental

318
00:11:00,710 --> 00:10:57,760
our our two

319
00:11:02,630 --> 00:11:00,720
or three premier scientific theories

320
00:11:03,829 --> 00:11:02,640
um really tell us

321
00:11:05,990 --> 00:11:03,839
their limits

322
00:11:07,269 --> 00:11:06,000
they tell us that space time cannot be

323
00:11:08,949 --> 00:11:07,279
fundamental

324
00:11:11,030 --> 00:11:08,959
and that therefore the contents of space

325
00:11:12,310 --> 00:11:11,040
time are not fundamental

326
00:11:15,350 --> 00:11:12,320
and so if we're going to look for a

327
00:11:17,590 --> 00:11:15,360
theory of consciousness

328
00:11:19,670 --> 00:11:17,600
and we start with something inside space

329
00:11:23,269 --> 00:11:19,680
time we're already starting where our

330
00:11:27,670 --> 00:11:25,190
is not fundamental

331
00:11:29,750 --> 00:11:27,680
so as a result i've been trying to then

332
00:11:31,269 --> 00:11:29,760
say well if space time isn't fundamental

333
00:11:32,949 --> 00:11:31,279
and we don't yet know

334
00:11:35,030 --> 00:11:32,959
what's more fundamental

335
00:11:36,949 --> 00:11:35,040
why don't we first start with trying to

336
00:11:39,670 --> 00:11:36,959
get a mathematical theory of

337
00:11:41,509 --> 00:11:39,680
consciousness on its own terms

338
00:11:42,870 --> 00:11:41,519
what is consciousness

339
00:11:44,230 --> 00:11:42,880
what kinds of assumptions can we make

340
00:11:45,990 --> 00:11:44,240
about it

341
00:11:48,150 --> 00:11:46,000
and then we can ask the question you

342
00:11:50,389 --> 00:11:48,160
know is consciousness

343
00:11:52,389 --> 00:11:50,399
more fundamental than space-time what is

344
00:11:54,870 --> 00:11:52,399
the relationship between consciousness

345
00:11:57,750 --> 00:11:54,880
and space-time

346
00:11:59,509 --> 00:11:57,760
so so the you know the and i can go in

347
00:12:02,710 --> 00:11:59,519
in some of the details if we want to on

348
00:12:03,790 --> 00:12:02,720
on that model um but but the big picture

349
00:12:06,150 --> 00:12:03,800
is that um

350
00:12:08,470 --> 00:12:06,160
[Music]

351
00:12:10,310 --> 00:12:08,480
i'm taking very seriously that evolution

352
00:12:11,350 --> 00:12:10,320
of natural selection entails that none

353
00:12:13,430 --> 00:12:11,360
of our

354
00:12:15,269 --> 00:12:13,440
sensory systems tell us the truths about

355
00:12:17,030 --> 00:12:15,279
objective reality and that therefore

356
00:12:19,030 --> 00:12:17,040
space time is is

357
00:12:19,990 --> 00:12:19,040
not an objective truth it's just

358
00:12:42,310 --> 00:12:20,000
a

359
00:12:44,389 --> 00:12:42,320
it's over

360
00:12:45,509 --> 00:12:44,399
space time is not fundamental and the

361
00:12:48,069 --> 00:12:45,519
contents of space time are not

362
00:12:49,590 --> 00:12:48,079
fundamental and so we need to figure out

363
00:12:50,949 --> 00:12:49,600
and he's got things with you working

364
00:12:53,350 --> 00:12:50,959
with juan maul the cena on things like

365
00:12:55,670 --> 00:12:53,360
cosmological polytopes they're finding

366
00:12:58,389 --> 00:12:55,680
structures beyond space-time from which

367
00:12:59,590 --> 00:12:58,399
space-time can emerge as as a as a

368
00:13:02,150 --> 00:12:59,600
projection

369
00:13:03,750 --> 00:13:02,160
as a special case but these in these in

370
00:13:05,590 --> 00:13:03,760
these deeper

371
00:13:07,509 --> 00:13:05,600
theories there is no time

372
00:13:09,430 --> 00:13:07,519
and there is no space

373
00:13:11,269 --> 00:13:09,440
but there are symmetries that are true

374
00:13:12,949 --> 00:13:11,279
of for example scattering amplitudes

375
00:13:15,110 --> 00:13:12,959
data

376
00:13:17,190 --> 00:13:15,120
that that are there that are true that

377
00:13:19,030 --> 00:13:17,200
you can't see in space time they they

378
00:13:20,790 --> 00:13:19,040
can predict the data but they don't use

379
00:13:23,910 --> 00:13:20,800
space and time as the fundamental

380
00:13:26,389 --> 00:13:23,920
concepts and i think that

381
00:13:27,509 --> 00:13:26,399
as we start to go into

382
00:13:28,870 --> 00:13:27,519
your scientific theories of

383
00:13:31,110 --> 00:13:28,880
consciousness

384
00:13:32,790 --> 00:13:31,120
we cannot ignore what our physicist

385
00:13:34,069 --> 00:13:32,800
colleagues are telling us

386
00:13:35,829 --> 00:13:34,079
they're they're telling us if you're

387
00:13:37,670 --> 00:13:35,839
looking for something fundamental it's

388
00:13:38,949 --> 00:13:37,680
not space time and in particular it's

389
00:13:42,069 --> 00:13:38,959
not time

390
00:13:44,230 --> 00:13:42,079
and that that is a real show stopper is

391
00:13:46,710 --> 00:13:44,240
it's for the physicist too i mean trying

392
00:13:49,670 --> 00:13:46,720
to think outside of the time box

393
00:13:51,829 --> 00:13:49,680
is not easy for the physicists and so

394
00:13:53,910 --> 00:13:51,839
what do we do if we don't have

395
00:13:54,790 --> 00:13:53,920
um space time if we don't have

396
00:13:57,509 --> 00:13:54,800
time

397
00:13:58,870 --> 00:13:57,519
so so i think that that's

398
00:14:00,389 --> 00:13:58,880
one of the interesting questions that we

399
00:14:02,150 --> 00:14:00,399
have to face if we're going to come up

400
00:14:04,710 --> 00:14:02,160
with a theory of consciousness what do

401
00:14:07,350 --> 00:14:04,720
we take as fundamental in our theory if

402
00:14:10,150 --> 00:14:07,360
we take anything inside space time

403
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:10,160
we're already sort of cutting ourselves

404
00:14:13,269 --> 00:14:11,040
off

405
00:14:14,470 --> 00:14:13,279
because we know that as physics

406
00:14:17,030 --> 00:14:14,480
progresses

407
00:14:19,509 --> 00:14:17,040
things inside space time will just be um

408
00:14:22,310 --> 00:14:19,519
shown to be secondary

409
00:14:23,509 --> 00:14:22,320
so we can go into my details on on

410
00:14:25,350 --> 00:14:23,519
you know my current model of

411
00:14:28,790 --> 00:14:25,360
consciousness but maybe we should talk

412
00:14:33,509 --> 00:14:28,800
first about these more meta ideas

413
00:14:37,829 --> 00:14:34,949
and it's interesting that you start

414
00:14:39,590 --> 00:14:37,839
outing yourself as a mysterianist in a

415
00:14:41,590 --> 00:14:39,600
way right the mysterianism being the

416
00:14:44,470 --> 00:14:41,600
position that human minds are basically

417
00:14:46,150 --> 00:14:44,480
not equipped to understand how they work

418
00:14:48,389 --> 00:14:46,160
or how the universe works that they are

419
00:14:50,550 --> 00:14:48,399
embedded in at a very deep level

420
00:14:52,470 --> 00:14:50,560
and i sometimes joke that mysterianism

421
00:14:54,230 --> 00:14:52,480
is the position that something cannot be

422
00:14:59,269 --> 00:14:54,240
understood if it cannot be understood by

423
00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:01,509
with respect to the mind at the science

424
00:15:06,550 --> 00:15:03,920
of consciousness conference he once uh

425
00:15:08,949 --> 00:15:06,560
gave a presentation where he uh talks

426
00:15:10,470 --> 00:15:08,959
about the card and then mentions that

427
00:15:12,310 --> 00:15:10,480
the card was actually a very smart

428
00:15:14,230 --> 00:15:12,320
fellow because you could already

429
00:15:16,870 --> 00:15:14,240
anticipate stuff that would only be

430
00:15:19,590 --> 00:15:16,880
discovered much much later on and i was

431
00:15:21,910 --> 00:15:19,600
perking up and wondering my god chomsky

432
00:15:23,829 --> 00:15:21,920
is giving this guy credit

433
00:15:24,790 --> 00:15:23,839
and it turned out what he anticipated

434
00:15:27,030 --> 00:15:24,800
was that

435
00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:27,040
we would later like tomski discover that

436
00:15:34,550 --> 00:15:32,710
right so uh this

437
00:15:36,230 --> 00:15:34,560
it's fascinating of course if you are

438
00:15:38,230 --> 00:15:36,240
one of the smartest minds of your own

439
00:15:40,310 --> 00:15:38,240
generation and you see that other people

440
00:15:43,110 --> 00:15:40,320
don't understand

441
00:15:44,790 --> 00:15:43,120
things and that you understand and there

442
00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:44,800
is a boundary where nobody seems to have

443
00:15:48,710 --> 00:15:46,560
an understanding and you crash against

444
00:15:51,110 --> 00:15:48,720
it you you might think okay maybe there

445
00:15:52,629 --> 00:15:51,120
is no way that humans can do it

446
00:15:54,230 --> 00:15:52,639
not convinced that this is the case

447
00:15:57,030 --> 00:15:54,240
though so i'm not i'm not a mysterianist

448
00:15:59,350 --> 00:15:57,040
at this point in my intellectual career

449
00:16:01,829 --> 00:15:59,360
and that's in part because i come from

450
00:16:03,269 --> 00:16:01,839
the other side so many of the things

451
00:16:05,430 --> 00:16:03,279
that

452
00:16:08,470 --> 00:16:05,440
people took as a given for a long time

453
00:16:10,710 --> 00:16:08,480
like space and time

454
00:16:12,069 --> 00:16:10,720
appeared to me in the beginning quite

455
00:16:12,870 --> 00:16:12,079
mysterious

456
00:16:17,269 --> 00:16:12,880
so

457
00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:17,279
time was not that mysterious to me

458
00:16:22,389 --> 00:16:19,120
basically i'm a computer scientist i

459
00:16:24,470 --> 00:16:22,399
started very very early on in my life to

460
00:16:26,389 --> 00:16:24,480
program before i properly understood

461
00:16:27,509 --> 00:16:26,399
mathematics and before i understood

462
00:16:29,590 --> 00:16:27,519
physics

463
00:16:31,269 --> 00:16:29,600
and i understood how to make things in a

464
00:16:32,949 --> 00:16:31,279
computer and

465
00:16:34,150 --> 00:16:32,959
einstein's watch

466
00:16:38,470 --> 00:16:34,160
that is

467
00:16:41,910 --> 00:16:40,470
movements and so on but you cannot open

468
00:16:44,230 --> 00:16:41,920
it and you can come up with theories

469
00:16:46,790 --> 00:16:44,240
what's happening inside to me this watch

470
00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:46,800
was the screen of a computer

471
00:16:51,990 --> 00:16:49,440
and i understood that there is no limit

472
00:16:54,069 --> 00:16:52,000
to what can be put into the computer if

473
00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:54,079
uh it has enough resources right so if

474
00:16:57,749 --> 00:16:55,600
the computer is fast enough and if it

475
00:16:59,590 --> 00:16:57,759
has enough memory there is no pattern

476
00:17:01,430 --> 00:16:59,600
that cannot be shown on the screen there

477
00:17:03,749 --> 00:17:01,440
is no limit to the sequence of patterns

478
00:17:06,069 --> 00:17:03,759
that is to be shown on the screen so any

479
00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:06,079
observation that i am making if i

480
00:17:10,949 --> 00:17:08,480
understand it as a pattern on some kind

481
00:17:13,750 --> 00:17:10,959
of screen that is visible to me i will

482
00:17:15,510 --> 00:17:13,760
always be able to construct something a

483
00:17:17,669 --> 00:17:15,520
mechanism that is on the other side and

484
00:17:20,069 --> 00:17:17,679
produces the sequence

485
00:17:22,470 --> 00:17:20,079
and now the question is can i produce an

486
00:17:25,189 --> 00:17:22,480
elegant sequence can i produce a minimal

487
00:17:26,870 --> 00:17:25,199
pattern can i produce something from

488
00:17:29,350 --> 00:17:26,880
which i think it's plausible that it

489
00:17:31,510 --> 00:17:29,360
emerged by itself

490
00:17:34,070 --> 00:17:31,520
and that is to me this big important

491
00:17:37,110 --> 00:17:34,080
question of physics the idea of

492
00:17:39,430 --> 00:17:37,120
physicalism to me is the notion that

493
00:17:41,270 --> 00:17:39,440
we live in a reality that is fully

494
00:17:43,270 --> 00:17:41,280
emergent over a causally closed

495
00:17:45,430 --> 00:17:43,280
mechanical layer and we are in that base

496
00:17:48,070 --> 00:17:45,440
reality that emerges from it

497
00:17:50,870 --> 00:17:48,080
and the alternatives to physicalism is

498
00:17:52,870 --> 00:17:50,880
that this base layer is somewhere else

499
00:17:54,390 --> 00:17:52,880
because even if we live in a simulation

500
00:17:56,390 --> 00:17:54,400
that is created by some kind of

501
00:17:57,510 --> 00:17:56,400
supernatural being

502
00:17:59,110 --> 00:17:57,520
something must have created the

503
00:18:01,270 --> 00:17:59,120
supernatural being in its parent

504
00:18:03,029 --> 00:18:01,280
universe right so ultimately every

505
00:18:06,390 --> 00:18:03,039
supernatural event is going to have some

506
00:18:08,789 --> 00:18:06,400
kind of natural cause some kind of prime

507
00:18:10,230 --> 00:18:08,799
mover that is taking away in the void

508
00:18:11,430 --> 00:18:10,240
and producing the patterns that you

509
00:18:14,230 --> 00:18:11,440
observe and the patterns that you

510
00:18:16,230 --> 00:18:14,240
observe are so damn regular and there is

511
00:18:19,669 --> 00:18:16,240
all this conservation going on

512
00:18:21,510 --> 00:18:19,679
of information that uh it

513
00:18:23,190 --> 00:18:21,520
doesn't seem like a conspiracy to me it

514
00:18:25,669 --> 00:18:23,200
seems that we are not in a simulation it

515
00:18:27,669 --> 00:18:25,679
seems that the idea that consciousness

516
00:18:29,669 --> 00:18:27,679
could be primary to our reality is not

517
00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:29,679
true because consciousness being primary

518
00:18:33,270 --> 00:18:31,520
means that you would have to live in

519
00:18:35,190 --> 00:18:33,280
somebody else's mind

520
00:18:37,270 --> 00:18:35,200
that we live in some kind of

521
00:18:39,110 --> 00:18:37,280
conspirational simulation that somebody

522
00:18:40,950 --> 00:18:39,120
has set up for us and well that is

523
00:18:42,870 --> 00:18:40,960
possible and i can principal not exclude

524
00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:42,880
it because there can be no evidence that

525
00:18:47,350 --> 00:18:45,200
can ever be fully conclusive if somebody

526
00:18:49,029 --> 00:18:47,360
sets it up to deceive me

527
00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:49,039
there is no reason for me to believe it

528
00:18:52,710 --> 00:18:50,160
because there are not enough things

529
00:18:54,630 --> 00:18:52,720
happening in my reality that counteract

530
00:18:57,270 --> 00:18:54,640
the notion that i live in a mechanical

531
00:18:58,870 --> 00:18:57,280
universe the few things that pop up i

532
00:19:01,350 --> 00:18:58,880
can still explain this by faulty

533
00:19:03,669 --> 00:19:01,360
memories and psychosis

534
00:19:06,070 --> 00:19:03,679
right so the only thing that uh needs to

535
00:19:08,390 --> 00:19:06,080
be explained and that i was puzzling

536
00:19:10,390 --> 00:19:08,400
people like turing and other thinkers is

537
00:19:11,190 --> 00:19:10,400
there's a possibility that telepathy is

538
00:19:15,110 --> 00:19:11,200
true

539
00:19:17,350 --> 00:19:15,120
would not be compatible with the way in

540
00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:17,360
which we understand physics right now

541
00:19:20,230 --> 00:19:18,960
and there's this question is there a

542
00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:20,240
point at which we have to discard

543
00:19:23,909 --> 00:19:22,080
physics fully and accept that you live

544
00:19:25,669 --> 00:19:23,919
in some kind of simulation in some kind

545
00:19:27,270 --> 00:19:25,679
of dream universe that somebody has set

546
00:19:29,430 --> 00:19:27,280
up like a computer game where you can

547
00:19:32,710 --> 00:19:29,440
arbitrarily break hostility when it's

548
00:19:35,350 --> 00:19:32,720
convenient or is this uh something that

549
00:19:37,029 --> 00:19:35,360
we need to extend physics or is it just

550
00:19:38,950 --> 00:19:37,039
something where our minds are playing

551
00:19:41,029 --> 00:19:38,960
tricks with us and we know our mindset

552
00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:41,039
playing lots of tricks with us

553
00:19:45,909 --> 00:19:43,200
so during considered the possibility

554
00:19:47,990 --> 00:19:45,919
that telepathy exists as very real to

555
00:19:50,710 --> 00:19:48,000
this to the point where he included this

556
00:19:52,070 --> 00:19:50,720
in his 1950 paper computing machinery

557
00:19:53,430 --> 00:19:52,080
and intelligence where he sketches out

558
00:19:55,830 --> 00:19:53,440
the tubing test

559
00:19:57,750 --> 00:19:55,840
and seriously asks what a turing test

560
00:19:59,350 --> 00:19:57,760
would have to involve or such a system

561
00:20:02,310 --> 00:19:59,360
the ability to

562
00:20:04,230 --> 00:20:02,320
be telepathic and if it's not what

563
00:20:06,310 --> 00:20:04,240
difference would it make it doesn't get

564
00:20:07,029 --> 00:20:06,320
to the point where you assess out loud

565
00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:07,039
that

566
00:20:10,870 --> 00:20:08,880
if telepathy is possible you cannot be

567
00:20:12,870 --> 00:20:10,880
sure which of your thoughts and feelings

568
00:20:15,110 --> 00:20:12,880
originate in your own brain they could

569
00:20:17,590 --> 00:20:15,120
come from somewhere else right so

570
00:20:18,549 --> 00:20:17,600
this opens up the door to lots and lots

571
00:20:20,630 --> 00:20:18,559
of things

572
00:20:22,390 --> 00:20:20,640
but uh for the time being

573
00:20:25,270 --> 00:20:22,400
i think that uh the evidence for

574
00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:25,280
telepathy is weak and if uh telepathy

575
00:20:28,870 --> 00:20:27,360
would exist um i would be seriously

576
00:20:31,669 --> 00:20:28,880
willing to consider this together with

577
00:20:33,510 --> 00:20:31,679
during uh this is not clear why whether

578
00:20:34,789 --> 00:20:33,520
we cannot find a mechanical explanation

579
00:20:36,549 --> 00:20:34,799
for it

580
00:20:38,630 --> 00:20:36,559
but there's always going to be some kind

581
00:20:40,470 --> 00:20:38,640
of computer program that explains the

582
00:20:43,590 --> 00:20:40,480
patterns on the screen

583
00:20:45,830 --> 00:20:43,600
now if we think about space

584
00:20:48,070 --> 00:20:45,840
to me as a

585
00:20:50,549 --> 00:20:48,080
kit that was programming the notion of a

586
00:20:52,390 --> 00:20:50,559
continuous space never made sense

587
00:20:54,710 --> 00:20:52,400
because it's not computable i cannot

588
00:20:56,470 --> 00:20:54,720
write something that is continuous space

589
00:20:58,070 --> 00:20:56,480
and when i tried to wrap my mind around

590
00:21:00,549 --> 00:20:58,080
the mathematics

591
00:21:02,310 --> 00:21:00,559
the language broke i was not able to

592
00:21:05,029 --> 00:21:02,320
understand how to make a point that is

593
00:21:07,190 --> 00:21:05,039
infinitely small yet fits together if

594
00:21:09,830 --> 00:21:07,200
you add infinitely many of these points

595
00:21:12,070 --> 00:21:09,840
into a continuum

596
00:21:14,070 --> 00:21:12,080
this just doesn't work right

597
00:21:16,230 --> 00:21:14,080
but it's not a problem to make something

598
00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:16,240
that exactly looks like this it's not a

599
00:21:20,070 --> 00:21:18,000
problem to make a computer game that

600
00:21:22,149 --> 00:21:20,080
looks continuous it's not a computer

601
00:21:24,070 --> 00:21:22,159
game that produces physics that looks

602
00:21:26,470 --> 00:21:24,080
similar to what we can observe at least

603
00:21:28,789 --> 00:21:26,480
in the simplification of course our

604
00:21:29,750 --> 00:21:28,799
computers are extremely inefficient when

605
00:21:31,669 --> 00:21:29,760
it comes

606
00:21:33,590 --> 00:21:31,679
to simulating

607
00:21:36,310 --> 00:21:33,600
the substrate layer the quantum

608
00:21:38,549 --> 00:21:36,320
mechanics that we can observe or a layer

609
00:21:40,310 --> 00:21:38,559
below the quantum mechanics if because

610
00:21:42,390 --> 00:21:40,320
quantum mechanics is probably not the

611
00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:42,400
the lowest layer in which physics plays

612
00:21:46,630 --> 00:21:44,480
out it's just the lowest layer in which

613
00:21:48,390 --> 00:21:46,640
we can currently make observations that

614
00:21:49,830 --> 00:21:48,400
we can conceptualize

615
00:21:51,029 --> 00:21:49,840
and this leads us to what you also

616
00:21:52,870 --> 00:21:51,039
mentioned

617
00:21:54,950 --> 00:21:52,880
what is the photon i don't think that

618
00:21:57,110 --> 00:21:54,960
einstein started out with the assumption

619
00:21:59,350 --> 00:21:57,120
that the speed of light is fixed i think

620
00:22:01,029 --> 00:21:59,360
it was a derivation that he made he

621
00:22:02,310 --> 00:22:01,039
concluded that the speed of light is

622
00:22:03,190 --> 00:22:02,320
fixed

623
00:22:05,830 --> 00:22:03,200
and

624
00:22:08,070 --> 00:22:05,840
he basically once he had this conclusion

625
00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:08,080
he had implications for the possible

626
00:22:12,870 --> 00:22:11,280
descriptions of space-time that emerged

627
00:22:15,110 --> 00:22:12,880
because uh when the speed of light is

628
00:22:17,750 --> 00:22:15,120
fixed you end up with some very

629
00:22:19,430 --> 00:22:17,760
interesting paradoxes if you stay in a

630
00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:19,440
newtonian universe right you have this

631
00:22:24,470 --> 00:22:21,280
issue imagine you fly in a very fast

632
00:22:26,230 --> 00:22:24,480
spaceship and you are lighting uh

633
00:22:28,710 --> 00:22:26,240
putting light out of your flashlight

634
00:22:31,110 --> 00:22:28,720
inside of your spaceship wouldn't the

635
00:22:32,789 --> 00:22:31,120
speed of light necessarily add up to the

636
00:22:33,990 --> 00:22:32,799
speed of the spaceship to an external

637
00:22:37,990 --> 00:22:34,000
observer

638
00:22:40,149 --> 00:22:38,000
not need to observe a different speed of

639
00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:40,159
light than the person traveling in a

640
00:22:43,430 --> 00:22:41,760
spaceship and if the speed of light is

641
00:22:44,549 --> 00:22:43,440
constant always

642
00:22:46,789 --> 00:22:44,559
it means

643
00:22:48,950 --> 00:22:46,799
that the thing that now it has to change

644
00:22:51,110 --> 00:22:48,960
is time or space or both

645
00:22:53,190 --> 00:22:51,120
right you can still fix this if you make

646
00:22:55,190 --> 00:22:53,200
sure that the speed of

647
00:22:57,350 --> 00:22:55,200
time runs in a different way and this

648
00:22:59,669 --> 00:22:57,360
leads us to the inside

649
00:23:01,830 --> 00:22:59,679
that the time and space that we observe

650
00:23:03,830 --> 00:23:01,840
from our own perspectives as at merchant

651
00:23:04,789 --> 00:23:03,840
observer and whatever universe produces

652
00:23:06,070 --> 00:23:04,799
us

653
00:23:07,830 --> 00:23:06,080
are interdependent they're not

654
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:07,840
independent of each other the speed of

655
00:23:12,230 --> 00:23:10,799
light depends on the trajectory that the

656
00:23:13,990 --> 00:23:12,240
the speed of time depends on the

657
00:23:16,230 --> 00:23:14,000
trajectory that you are taking through

658
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:16,240
the universe

659
00:23:18,390 --> 00:23:17,039
and

660
00:23:20,390 --> 00:23:18,400
if you want to think about something

661
00:23:22,470 --> 00:23:20,400
that could be more fundamental

662
00:23:23,990 --> 00:23:22,480
we would say that the photon is a

663
00:23:25,830 --> 00:23:24,000
carrier of a

664
00:23:28,390 --> 00:23:25,840
of the electromagnetic force it's a type

665
00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:28,400
of boson which means it can be described

666
00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:30,240
as a certain pattern that has an integer

667
00:23:33,270 --> 00:23:31,200
spin

668
00:23:34,470 --> 00:23:33,280
and it has the property

669
00:23:36,789 --> 00:23:34,480
that it

670
00:23:38,710 --> 00:23:36,799
is describing the potential lte for

671
00:23:39,830 --> 00:23:38,720
measuring some electromagnetic

672
00:23:41,350 --> 00:23:39,840
interaction

673
00:23:43,190 --> 00:23:41,360
so if we take space time from the

674
00:23:44,710 --> 00:23:43,200
perspective of the observer it's the set

675
00:23:46,070 --> 00:23:44,720
of locations that can contain

676
00:23:48,390 --> 00:23:46,080
information

677
00:23:51,190 --> 00:23:48,400
and the set of trajectories that the

678
00:23:53,510 --> 00:23:51,200
information can take and the photon is a

679
00:23:55,909 --> 00:23:53,520
model of information traveling through

680
00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:55,919
space-time

681
00:24:01,029 --> 00:23:58,240
and what we have discovered and what

682
00:24:03,669 --> 00:24:01,039
einstein also sometimes suspected

683
00:24:04,950 --> 00:24:03,679
is that space itself cannot be

684
00:24:07,510 --> 00:24:04,960
fundamental

685
00:24:10,549 --> 00:24:07,520
and there were concrete reasons to to

686
00:24:12,310 --> 00:24:10,559
see this because what was discovered

687
00:24:13,190 --> 00:24:12,320
during einstein's career even when he

688
00:24:17,510 --> 00:24:13,200
was

689
00:24:19,590 --> 00:24:17,520
were singularities in spacetime which

690
00:24:21,750 --> 00:24:19,600
means points at where the mathematics of

691
00:24:23,350 --> 00:24:21,760
continuous space breaks down so your

692
00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:23,360
mathematics doesn't work anymore you

693
00:24:27,110 --> 00:24:25,440
have some kind of a division by zero

694
00:24:29,750 --> 00:24:27,120
something unpleasant happens where your

695
00:24:32,789 --> 00:24:29,760
mathematics is no longer valid

696
00:24:33,990 --> 00:24:32,799
and what einstein saw is that we can fix

697
00:24:36,149 --> 00:24:34,000
this by

698
00:24:38,070 --> 00:24:36,159
shifting the singularities around in our

699
00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:38,080
spaces type model

700
00:24:40,870 --> 00:24:39,840
and we can basically put them below the

701
00:24:43,510 --> 00:24:40,880
carpet

702
00:24:45,669 --> 00:24:43,520
you can put them in centers of mass

703
00:24:47,110 --> 00:24:45,679
so in the center of mars there is

704
00:24:48,870 --> 00:24:47,120
basically something like little black

705
00:24:50,230 --> 00:24:48,880
hole where mathematics doesn't work

706
00:24:51,669 --> 00:24:50,240
anymore the mathematics of space time

707
00:24:53,990 --> 00:24:51,679
where your mathematical description of

708
00:24:56,230 --> 00:24:54,000
that world doesn't work anymore

709
00:24:57,750 --> 00:24:56,240
and what could be more fundamental than

710
00:25:00,390 --> 00:24:57,760
space-time i think it could be

711
00:25:02,310 --> 00:25:00,400
transitions so you describe the universe

712
00:25:04,310 --> 00:25:02,320
as some kind of state vector set of

713
00:25:05,909 --> 00:25:04,320
information and this information is

714
00:25:09,110 --> 00:25:05,919
dynamic you have the way in which

715
00:25:12,310 --> 00:25:09,120
information moves between the locations

716
00:25:14,310 --> 00:25:12,320
and in this paradigm the speed of light

717
00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:14,320
could be uh the rate at which

718
00:25:20,149 --> 00:25:17,760
information propagates between locations

719
00:25:21,990 --> 00:25:20,159
and this would be an upper limit of all

720
00:25:23,430 --> 00:25:22,000
interactions that you observe

721
00:25:25,909 --> 00:25:23,440
within this

722
00:25:27,190 --> 00:25:25,919
lattice versus staff is densely

723
00:25:29,669 --> 00:25:27,200
connected

724
00:25:31,590 --> 00:25:29,679
what would it what would be necessary to

725
00:25:33,029 --> 00:25:31,600
if you have a set of locations some kind

726
00:25:34,710 --> 00:25:33,039
of graph and causal graph and

727
00:25:36,310 --> 00:25:34,720
information flowing between them to

728
00:25:37,669 --> 00:25:36,320
understand that there is causal

729
00:25:39,590 --> 00:25:37,679
structure well you need to understand

730
00:25:41,190 --> 00:25:39,600
where the information comes from to

731
00:25:43,990 --> 00:25:41,200
understand what it signifies so you can

732
00:25:45,590 --> 00:25:44,000
model it how can a single bit mean

733
00:25:47,590 --> 00:25:45,600
anything to you if it's just a single

734
00:25:50,070 --> 00:25:47,600
bit if it's not attached with the source

735
00:25:52,230 --> 00:25:50,080
with the type with the context

736
00:25:53,909 --> 00:25:52,240
right so what could be a way to figure

737
00:25:55,909 --> 00:25:53,919
out where information comes from well it

738
00:25:57,430 --> 00:25:55,919
needs to have some kind of momentum some

739
00:26:00,070 --> 00:25:57,440
kind of direction

740
00:26:02,070 --> 00:26:00,080
to carry information about direction

741
00:26:03,590 --> 00:26:02,080
and you send this to the graph that by

742
00:26:05,669 --> 00:26:03,600
itself just has just locations

743
00:26:09,029 --> 00:26:05,679
connections the only way that you can do

744
00:26:10,950 --> 00:26:09,039
this is if this thing is extended if

745
00:26:12,549 --> 00:26:10,960
it's not just a single location so which

746
00:26:14,310 --> 00:26:12,559
the information propagates but if it's

747
00:26:16,070 --> 00:26:14,320
neighboring connections and you get

748
00:26:18,630 --> 00:26:16,080
information that verifies it so you need

749
00:26:20,870 --> 00:26:18,640
to be in some kind of densely strong

750
00:26:22,230 --> 00:26:20,880
letters for information that you can

751
00:26:23,430 --> 00:26:22,240
pinpoint

752
00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:23,440
basically you need to have something

753
00:26:28,149 --> 00:26:25,760
that looks like a continuous space so

754
00:26:30,630 --> 00:26:28,159
you can identify controllable structure

755
00:26:32,549 --> 00:26:30,640
that you can identify where uh stuff

756
00:26:34,950 --> 00:26:32,559
comes from like a photon

757
00:26:36,870 --> 00:26:34,960
and uh if there is information that is

758
00:26:39,269 --> 00:26:36,880
traveling across distance so to speak

759
00:26:40,950 --> 00:26:39,279
that this is non-local that is not going

760
00:26:43,029 --> 00:26:40,960
through densely connected local

761
00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:43,039
connections but that is going over

762
00:26:46,149 --> 00:26:44,640
individual long-range links this

763
00:26:48,549 --> 00:26:46,159
information will look like a random

764
00:26:50,230 --> 00:26:48,559
fluctuation or a distant entanglement

765
00:26:52,710 --> 00:26:50,240
that you can no longer track if you

766
00:26:54,630 --> 00:26:52,720
don't know where it originated

767
00:26:55,909 --> 00:26:54,640
and this would will look like something

768
00:26:57,669 --> 00:26:55,919
like

769
00:26:59,510 --> 00:26:57,679
in determinism in from your local

770
00:27:01,510 --> 00:26:59,520
observer perspective

771
00:27:03,510 --> 00:27:01,520
still you would uh not be in

772
00:27:05,269 --> 00:27:03,520
contradiction to the

773
00:27:06,950 --> 00:27:05,279
preservation of information it would

774
00:27:09,590 --> 00:27:06,960
still be a universe in which information

775
00:27:12,310 --> 00:27:09,600
is not invented but in which the amount

776
00:27:15,029 --> 00:27:12,320
of discernible information is constant

777
00:27:17,029 --> 00:27:15,039
and if the universe was not in such a

778
00:27:18,630 --> 00:27:17,039
way that information would be preserved

779
00:27:20,549 --> 00:27:18,640
of course it would not be learnable

780
00:27:22,310 --> 00:27:20,559
because it would mean that the present

781
00:27:24,310 --> 00:27:22,320
state of the universe

782
00:27:26,710 --> 00:27:24,320
is forgetting what happened before in

783
00:27:28,230 --> 00:27:26,720
the universe it gets disconnected the

784
00:27:29,990 --> 00:27:28,240
world line of the universe just gets

785
00:27:32,710 --> 00:27:30,000
disconnected and so from an

786
00:27:34,630 --> 00:27:32,720
epistemological perspective we can only

787
00:27:36,230 --> 00:27:34,640
learn the aspects of the universe that

788
00:27:37,750 --> 00:27:36,240
look like they are conserved if there

789
00:27:39,269 --> 00:27:37,760
are things in the universe that are not

790
00:27:40,789 --> 00:27:39,279
conserved then they will not be

791
00:27:42,389 --> 00:27:40,799
intelligible to us

792
00:27:44,630 --> 00:27:42,399
and of course it's conceivable that the

793
00:27:46,950 --> 00:27:44,640
universe is some kind of automaton that

794
00:27:48,950 --> 00:27:46,960
forgets information

795
00:27:51,990 --> 00:27:48,960
another thing that shows us that

796
00:27:53,110 --> 00:27:52,000
space-time cannot be fundamental besides

797
00:27:55,190 --> 00:27:53,120
um

798
00:27:58,149 --> 00:27:55,200
about theorem which destroys the notion

799
00:27:59,990 --> 00:27:58,159
of locality is the notion of the

800
00:28:00,870 --> 00:28:00,000
collapse of the wave function basically

801
00:28:02,549 --> 00:28:00,880
this

802
00:28:03,430 --> 00:28:02,559
collapse of the wave function is the

803
00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:03,440
point

804
00:28:07,269 --> 00:28:05,520
in the history of an observer beyond

805
00:28:08,950 --> 00:28:07,279
which we cannot

806
00:28:12,470 --> 00:28:08,960
obtain a model

807
00:28:14,789 --> 00:28:12,480
of locations of events in time and space

808
00:28:16,870 --> 00:28:14,799
right beyond that point it's no longer

809
00:28:18,870 --> 00:28:16,880
not just that we don't have enough

810
00:28:20,950 --> 00:28:18,880
information to construct it but it makes

811
00:28:22,950 --> 00:28:20,960
no sense anymore to assume that the

812
00:28:24,549 --> 00:28:22,960
photon was at a particular point when it

813
00:28:27,110 --> 00:28:24,559
went to the double slit

814
00:28:28,789 --> 00:28:27,120
right at this point the space-time model

815
00:28:30,389 --> 00:28:28,799
breaks down the space-time model is a

816
00:28:32,549 --> 00:28:30,399
mathematical abstraction

817
00:28:35,269 --> 00:28:32,559
that works relatively well to look at

818
00:28:37,110 --> 00:28:35,279
things happening in the limit

819
00:28:39,269 --> 00:28:37,120
but it's not a model that can be

820
00:28:41,269 --> 00:28:39,279
fundamental i think

821
00:28:42,549 --> 00:28:41,279
and but i'm not a physicist so i'm not

822
00:28:44,149 --> 00:28:42,559
actually qualified to have these

823
00:28:46,230 --> 00:28:44,159
opinions this is just what it looks like

824
00:28:48,070 --> 00:28:46,240
to me as a computer scientist who tries

825
00:28:49,590 --> 00:28:48,080
to understand the mind and things like

826
00:28:51,029 --> 00:28:49,600
donald that

827
00:28:53,669 --> 00:28:51,039
we have to

828
00:28:56,070 --> 00:28:53,679
understand a certain degree of physics

829
00:28:57,990 --> 00:28:56,080
to make sure that our theories of

830
00:29:00,630 --> 00:28:58,000
consciousness are tight and that they

831
00:29:02,870 --> 00:29:00,640
make sense and to have to understand in

832
00:29:03,990 --> 00:29:02,880
which way they could possibly relate to

833
00:29:06,149 --> 00:29:04,000
physics

834
00:29:07,990 --> 00:29:06,159
i'm less convinced that donald that a

835
00:29:09,669 --> 00:29:08,000
deep understanding of physics is

836
00:29:11,830 --> 00:29:09,679
necessary or that physics is going to

837
00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:11,840
teach us about consciousness in part

838
00:29:17,269 --> 00:29:14,240
because i don't think that consciousness

839
00:29:17,990 --> 00:29:17,279
is that mysterious anymore i spent a lot

840
00:29:19,510 --> 00:29:18,000
of

841
00:29:21,750 --> 00:29:19,520
time in my life

842
00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:21,760
thinking that it was mysterious but

843
00:29:26,870 --> 00:29:24,640
seems to be a riddle that can be solved

844
00:29:28,389 --> 00:29:26,880
and uh basically i think that there's

845
00:29:29,909 --> 00:29:28,399
some aspects to consciousness for

846
00:29:32,630 --> 00:29:29,919
instance that you that you're observing

847
00:29:34,870 --> 00:29:32,640
yourself to be observing but uh

848
00:29:36,470 --> 00:29:34,880
consciousness is

849
00:29:38,870 --> 00:29:36,480
something that is entirely virtual it's

850
00:29:40,630 --> 00:29:38,880
not a physical thing

851
00:29:42,789 --> 00:29:40,640
electrons photons

852
00:29:45,190 --> 00:29:42,799
physical entities neurons brains cannot

853
00:29:45,909 --> 00:29:45,200
be conscious they're just mechanisms

854
00:29:47,909 --> 00:29:45,919
and

855
00:29:50,230 --> 00:29:47,919
what we can see is that the elements of

856
00:29:51,990 --> 00:29:50,240
our consciousness are not mechanical

857
00:29:53,269 --> 00:29:52,000
they're magical somehow there is magic

858
00:29:57,269 --> 00:29:53,279
happening

859
00:29:59,029 --> 00:29:57,279
that it's an a causal structure it's

860
00:30:02,470 --> 00:29:59,039
something that has been made on some

861
00:30:05,350 --> 00:30:02,480
kind of causal loom but that is not

862
00:30:07,590 --> 00:30:05,360
necessarily built in the same mechanical

863
00:30:10,470 --> 00:30:07,600
way as physics is built

864
00:30:13,110 --> 00:30:10,480
it's a story it's a it's a tale being

865
00:30:14,870 --> 00:30:13,120
told by a physical system to itself

866
00:30:16,789 --> 00:30:14,880
and if you think about organisms you

867
00:30:18,870 --> 00:30:16,799
often think of them as physical systems

868
00:30:20,950 --> 00:30:18,880
and they're neither right the organism

869
00:30:23,029 --> 00:30:20,960
doesn't exist it's not the same

870
00:30:24,549 --> 00:30:23,039
if you think about it what exists are

871
00:30:26,389 --> 00:30:24,559
cells that interact with each other and

872
00:30:27,990 --> 00:30:26,399
even the cells don't really exist what

873
00:30:29,669 --> 00:30:28,000
exists are molecules and even the

874
00:30:31,590 --> 00:30:29,679
molecules don't really exist right

875
00:30:33,350 --> 00:30:31,600
they're all layers of descriptions

876
00:30:34,870 --> 00:30:33,360
they're models that we can make because

877
00:30:37,430 --> 00:30:34,880
they're coherent

878
00:30:39,430 --> 00:30:37,440
and they hold to some degree

879
00:30:41,669 --> 00:30:39,440
it might be frazzling out at the

880
00:30:43,269 --> 00:30:41,679
boundaries but there are ways of

881
00:30:44,789 --> 00:30:43,279
thinking about the flow of information

882
00:30:47,110 --> 00:30:44,799
in the universe

883
00:30:48,470 --> 00:30:47,120
and the organism is a coherent pattern

884
00:30:50,789 --> 00:30:48,480
that you observe in the interaction

885
00:30:52,710 --> 00:30:50,799
between cells and the cells have been

886
00:30:54,630 --> 00:30:52,720
set up by evolution to interact in this

887
00:30:56,710 --> 00:30:54,640
coherent pattern because when they

888
00:30:58,789 --> 00:30:56,720
interact as if they were driven by a

889
00:31:00,789 --> 00:30:58,799
single spirit by a single target by a

890
00:31:03,029 --> 00:31:00,799
single telos and if their behavior is

891
00:31:05,269 --> 00:31:03,039
coherent and consistent that are state

892
00:31:07,190 --> 00:31:05,279
building then they have an advantage

893
00:31:08,710 --> 00:31:07,200
over cells which don't do that and just

894
00:31:10,310 --> 00:31:08,720
fight for themselves because together

895
00:31:12,870 --> 00:31:10,320
they can play longer games

896
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:12,880
by playing longer games they can occupy

897
00:31:17,830 --> 00:31:16,080
niches in nature that cannot be occupied

898
00:31:18,710 --> 00:31:17,840
by control systems that play shorter

899
00:31:20,789 --> 00:31:18,720
games

900
00:31:23,750 --> 00:31:20,799
and this is the benefit that organisms

901
00:31:25,110 --> 00:31:23,760
have these coordinations between cells

902
00:31:27,350 --> 00:31:25,120
and an organism is a function that

903
00:31:30,549 --> 00:31:27,360
describes this pattern in the cells

904
00:31:32,630 --> 00:31:30,559
and the organism is facilitated by

905
00:31:34,230 --> 00:31:32,640
information processing across cells

906
00:31:36,630 --> 00:31:34,240
among other things

907
00:31:38,310 --> 00:31:36,640
to coordinate its interactions the

908
00:31:41,029 --> 00:31:38,320
organism needs to have something like a

909
00:31:43,029 --> 00:31:41,039
telegraph network by which it's able to

910
00:31:44,470 --> 00:31:43,039
make models of reality and coordinate

911
00:31:46,389 --> 00:31:44,480
them between the cells and coordinate

912
00:31:49,990 --> 00:31:46,399
the behavior of the cells

913
00:31:51,990 --> 00:31:50,000
and in animals this telegraph system is

914
00:31:53,909 --> 00:31:52,000
facilitated in large part by the nervous

915
00:31:55,750 --> 00:31:53,919
system it would not be necessary that

916
00:31:57,669 --> 00:31:55,760
the nervous system basically every cell

917
00:31:58,870 --> 00:31:57,679
type can do this but if you want to make

918
00:32:00,389 --> 00:31:58,880
it fast

919
00:32:02,789 --> 00:32:00,399
you need to have specialized cells that

920
00:32:04,789 --> 00:32:02,799
have a very quick expensive metabolism

921
00:32:06,630 --> 00:32:04,799
and can send information over very long

922
00:32:08,789 --> 00:32:06,640
distances very quickly which other cell

923
00:32:10,870 --> 00:32:08,799
types cannot so neurons are a specific

924
00:32:12,070 --> 00:32:10,880
type of cells that allow

925
00:32:13,350 --> 00:32:12,080
particular kind of information

926
00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:13,360
processing

927
00:32:19,509 --> 00:32:17,279
property that they can put stuff on the

928
00:32:21,590 --> 00:32:19,519
screen so it's some kind of computer

929
00:32:23,509 --> 00:32:21,600
it's a thing that can produce arbitrary

930
00:32:25,990 --> 00:32:23,519
sequences of patterns if it discovers a

931
00:32:27,750 --> 00:32:26,000
suitable function to produce them and

932
00:32:29,750 --> 00:32:27,760
implement them in the distributed

933
00:32:31,509 --> 00:32:29,760
networks of cells

934
00:32:33,430 --> 00:32:31,519
and part of what they're doing is that

935
00:32:35,350 --> 00:32:33,440
they create a story

936
00:32:36,630 --> 00:32:35,360
about a being that lives in the outside

937
00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:36,640
world

938
00:32:40,870 --> 00:32:38,480
and in our culture we have difficulty

939
00:32:43,269 --> 00:32:40,880
understanding how that is because we

940
00:32:45,590 --> 00:32:43,279
in our culture as a default teacher for

941
00:32:46,549 --> 00:32:45,600
kids that what they see is the physical

942
00:32:50,149 --> 00:32:46,559
world

943
00:32:52,149 --> 00:32:50,159
colors and so on only much later we tell

944
00:32:54,230 --> 00:32:52,159
them well it's slightly more complicated

945
00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:54,240
and sounds and color are not actually in

946
00:32:57,110 --> 00:32:55,679
physics

947
00:32:59,509 --> 00:32:57,120
everything that you consider to be

948
00:33:01,029 --> 00:32:59,519
sounds and colors is photons photons

949
00:33:03,190 --> 00:33:01,039
make electromagnetic interaction which

950
00:33:06,230 --> 00:33:03,200
let air molecules push against each

951
00:33:07,750 --> 00:33:06,240
other so they can form regular waves and

952
00:33:10,149 --> 00:33:07,760
colors are

953
00:33:13,269 --> 00:33:10,159
local dimensions that you get by

954
00:33:15,269 --> 00:33:13,279
measuring sampling the frequency of the

955
00:33:16,950 --> 00:33:15,279
electromagnetic spectrum using different

956
00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:16,960
receptor types and making a model of

957
00:33:21,990 --> 00:33:19,600
them using polar coordinates

958
00:33:23,990 --> 00:33:22,000
right so this is something that we don't

959
00:33:25,430 --> 00:33:24,000
tell the story fully to our children

960
00:33:27,350 --> 00:33:25,440
which makes it even more confusing and

961
00:33:29,110 --> 00:33:27,360
then we tell them uh photons are

962
00:33:31,750 --> 00:33:29,120
actually not little billiard balls but

963
00:33:33,350 --> 00:33:31,760
there are regions in the space time that

964
00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:33,360
have a potential for an electromagnetic

965
00:33:36,310 --> 00:33:34,480
interaction

966
00:33:38,950 --> 00:33:36,320
and this space that you're talking about

967
00:33:40,549 --> 00:33:38,960
is the photonic space it's the space

968
00:33:42,389 --> 00:33:40,559
where you can possibly have photon

969
00:33:44,070 --> 00:33:42,399
interactions for some reason it's

970
00:33:45,430 --> 00:33:44,080
three-dimensional

971
00:33:46,870 --> 00:33:45,440
and maybe there are other spaces that

972
00:33:48,789 --> 00:33:46,880
are not three-dimensional and maybe in

973
00:33:50,710 --> 00:33:48,799
these spaces you cannot have interacting

974
00:33:53,990 --> 00:33:50,720
matter in the same way

975
00:33:55,509 --> 00:33:54,000
because uh maybe um in order to get

976
00:33:57,590 --> 00:33:55,519
stable objects you need to make little

977
00:33:59,990 --> 00:33:57,600
nuts in the electromagnetic structure or

978
00:34:02,070 --> 00:34:00,000
in the spatial structure and you cannot

979
00:34:04,470 --> 00:34:02,080
make knots in 2d and in 4d they fall

980
00:34:05,909 --> 00:34:04,480
apart so maybe that's the reason or

981
00:34:07,509 --> 00:34:05,919
maybe there's another one and we haven't

982
00:34:09,829 --> 00:34:07,519
completely figured it out yet and there

983
00:34:11,190 --> 00:34:09,839
are some candidates that explain why the

984
00:34:13,109 --> 00:34:11,200
space that we are in is

985
00:34:14,629 --> 00:34:13,119
three-dimensional so why is it that we

986
00:34:16,230 --> 00:34:14,639
are interacting with the photonic space

987
00:34:18,550 --> 00:34:16,240
and not with the others why are the

988
00:34:19,589 --> 00:34:18,560
others not seeming to form a connected

989
00:34:21,589 --> 00:34:19,599
space

990
00:34:23,669 --> 00:34:21,599
in this connected letters

991
00:34:26,310 --> 00:34:23,679
um but we don't know the answer yet at

992
00:34:27,909 --> 00:34:26,320
least i'm not aware of the work that is

993
00:34:28,869 --> 00:34:27,919
sketching out the answer

994
00:34:31,349 --> 00:34:28,879
and

995
00:34:32,550 --> 00:34:31,359
if i stumble on it i i pray that i

996
00:34:33,829 --> 00:34:32,560
understand it

997
00:34:36,389 --> 00:34:33,839
but i think that there are other

998
00:34:37,909 --> 00:34:36,399
cultures that have a better intuitive

999
00:34:39,750 --> 00:34:37,919
understanding of what consciousness is

1000
00:34:41,829 --> 00:34:39,760
and if you look around we find that some

1001
00:34:44,470 --> 00:34:41,839
cultures don't find consciousness

1002
00:34:47,109 --> 00:34:44,480
mysterious i even suspect that in the

1003
00:34:48,710 --> 00:34:47,119
core of our own culture before the tower

1004
00:34:51,430 --> 00:34:48,720
of people that destroyed the shared

1005
00:34:54,310 --> 00:34:51,440
understanding it's still in there

1006
00:34:57,030 --> 00:34:54,320
so a little bit obsessed these days with

1007
00:34:59,510 --> 00:34:57,040
thinking about genesis in the bible and

1008
00:35:02,310 --> 00:34:59,520
read this epistemologically correct not

1009
00:35:04,230 --> 00:35:02,320
as a myth that is a stand in for an

1010
00:35:05,109 --> 00:35:04,240
origin theory until real science comes

1011
00:35:07,990 --> 00:35:05,119
along

1012
00:35:10,470 --> 00:35:08,000
but as something that is literally true

1013
00:35:12,230 --> 00:35:10,480
so what would that mean you know i'm

1014
00:35:13,990 --> 00:35:12,240
talking about the first book

1015
00:35:16,390 --> 00:35:14,000
i'm talking about um the book that

1016
00:35:18,150 --> 00:35:16,400
starts out with the creation of

1017
00:35:19,430 --> 00:35:18,160
sky and darkness and heaven and earth

1018
00:35:20,630 --> 00:35:19,440
and so on

1019
00:35:22,310 --> 00:35:20,640
and

1020
00:35:24,230 --> 00:35:22,320
they sing with the story if you take it

1021
00:35:26,390 --> 00:35:24,240
literally the way in which christianity

1022
00:35:28,230 --> 00:35:26,400
interprets it it's a story about a

1023
00:35:30,310 --> 00:35:28,240
supernatural being creating a physical

1024
00:35:31,910 --> 00:35:30,320
universe and what's wrong with the story

1025
00:35:33,750 --> 00:35:31,920
is that whoever tells it to you had no

1026
00:35:35,510 --> 00:35:33,760
evidence that it was true

1027
00:35:37,109 --> 00:35:35,520
right so there is no claim

1028
00:35:39,829 --> 00:35:37,119
if somebody makes a claim without

1029
00:35:42,550 --> 00:35:39,839
evidence you don't have to listen

1030
00:35:43,990 --> 00:35:42,560
it uh it could be interesting as a story

1031
00:35:45,430 --> 00:35:44,000
for cultural reference what could be

1032
00:35:47,030 --> 00:35:45,440
interesting as an idea for something

1033
00:35:48,790 --> 00:35:47,040
that you could test but if it's

1034
00:35:50,950 --> 00:35:48,800
principle not testable

1035
00:35:52,870 --> 00:35:50,960
this person cannot have that evidence

1036
00:35:54,630 --> 00:35:52,880
there is no secret source of knowledge

1037
00:35:56,710 --> 00:35:54,640
that this person had there is in

1038
00:35:57,589 --> 00:35:56,720
principle nothing that

1039
00:35:59,510 --> 00:35:57,599
that

1040
00:36:01,270 --> 00:35:59,520
some other person can update others with

1041
00:36:02,950 --> 00:36:01,280
some kind of back channel by talking to

1042
00:36:06,550 --> 00:36:02,960
a burning bush that could would

1043
00:36:07,270 --> 00:36:06,560
constitute a valid experiment so

1044
00:36:09,270 --> 00:36:07,280
uh

1045
00:36:10,870 --> 00:36:09,280
this reading makes no sense

1046
00:36:12,630 --> 00:36:10,880
it would never make any sense but it

1047
00:36:14,069 --> 00:36:12,640
could make sense especially if you

1048
00:36:15,670 --> 00:36:14,079
understand that

1049
00:36:17,910 --> 00:36:15,680
sky and ground

1050
00:36:19,829 --> 00:36:17,920
and light and sound and plants and

1051
00:36:21,670 --> 00:36:19,839
animals and their names don't actually

1052
00:36:23,510 --> 00:36:21,680
exist in physics

1053
00:36:25,349 --> 00:36:23,520
right they only exist in our mind as a

1054
00:36:27,270 --> 00:36:25,359
division of the universe into separate

1055
00:36:28,390 --> 00:36:27,280
objects so they become intelligible to

1056
00:36:30,870 --> 00:36:28,400
us

1057
00:36:33,109 --> 00:36:30,880
and the way in which we construct these

1058
00:36:34,950 --> 00:36:33,119
objects is inside of the mind so the

1059
00:36:37,190 --> 00:36:34,960
creation of the universe that is being

1060
00:36:38,870 --> 00:36:37,200
described in genesis is not the

1061
00:36:41,750 --> 00:36:38,880
physicalist universe with quantum

1062
00:36:43,510 --> 00:36:41,760
mechanics it's the creation of the

1063
00:36:45,190 --> 00:36:43,520
experimental universe in which we are

1064
00:36:46,390 --> 00:36:45,200
actually in in which we find ourselves

1065
00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:46,400
to be in

1066
00:36:50,230 --> 00:36:48,800
and the first thing that the mind is

1067
00:36:52,710 --> 00:36:50,240
discovering when it creates this

1068
00:36:54,550 --> 00:36:52,720
universe is how to make light

1069
00:36:57,829 --> 00:36:54,560
right how to uh create neural

1070
00:37:00,150 --> 00:36:57,839
oscillators that are creating a contrast

1071
00:37:02,069 --> 00:37:00,160
between light and darkness so separate

1072
00:37:03,990 --> 00:37:02,079
the light from the darkness and then

1073
00:37:06,150 --> 00:37:04,000
organize this into multiple dimensions

1074
00:37:07,829 --> 00:37:06,160
until you get a space

1075
00:37:09,750 --> 00:37:07,839
and then you align the space with the

1076
00:37:11,030 --> 00:37:09,760
information from your vestibular organs

1077
00:37:12,870 --> 00:37:11,040
and what you get

1078
00:37:15,270 --> 00:37:12,880
is the two-dimensional plane of the

1079
00:37:17,829 --> 00:37:15,280
ground and the three-dimensional space

1080
00:37:19,670 --> 00:37:17,839
of the sky above it

1081
00:37:22,550 --> 00:37:19,680
right so after you create light and

1082
00:37:25,030 --> 00:37:22,560
darkness you create literally every mind

1083
00:37:27,030 --> 00:37:25,040
does this in their cognitive development

1084
00:37:28,790 --> 00:37:27,040
the sky and the ground

1085
00:37:30,310 --> 00:37:28,800
and then you discover the objects in it

1086
00:37:32,870 --> 00:37:30,320
so you basically learn how to model

1087
00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:32,880
materials in your mind so you have

1088
00:37:37,510 --> 00:37:35,520
solids and you have liquids

1089
00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:37,520
and you have organic shapes and you have

1090
00:37:41,109 --> 00:37:39,680
animated agents

1091
00:37:42,950 --> 00:37:41,119
and then you discover features that you

1092
00:37:44,069 --> 00:37:42,960
cannot interact with like celestial

1093
00:37:45,510 --> 00:37:44,079
bodies

1094
00:37:47,510 --> 00:37:45,520
and anchor them in the world and you

1095
00:37:49,190 --> 00:37:47,520
learn how to navigate this world and

1096
00:37:50,630 --> 00:37:49,200
then you discover all the plants and the

1097
00:37:52,150 --> 00:37:50,640
animals or you construct them in your

1098
00:37:54,470 --> 00:37:52,160
mind and you associate them all with

1099
00:37:56,310 --> 00:37:54,480
their names so again of course not a

1100
00:37:57,829 --> 00:37:56,320
feature of the physical world they are

1101
00:37:59,990 --> 00:37:57,839
socially cons

1102
00:38:02,470 --> 00:38:00,000
exchanged these names and so on create

1103
00:38:03,349 --> 00:38:02,480
this world together and then

1104
00:38:05,030 --> 00:38:03,359
last

1105
00:38:07,589 --> 00:38:05,040
but not least

1106
00:38:09,750 --> 00:38:07,599
we create a person

1107
00:38:12,069 --> 00:38:09,760
so the thing that creates it is not a

1108
00:38:13,910 --> 00:38:12,079
person yet it's a mind that exists

1109
00:38:16,069 --> 00:38:13,920
before a person is around we don't

1110
00:38:18,310 --> 00:38:16,079
remember how we made light

1111
00:38:20,150 --> 00:38:18,320
we don't remember how we discovered the

1112
00:38:22,390 --> 00:38:20,160
sky and the ground in the first space

1113
00:38:23,510 --> 00:38:22,400
this was another observing agent in our

1114
00:38:25,270 --> 00:38:23,520
own brain

1115
00:38:27,990 --> 00:38:25,280
and this observing agent in our own

1116
00:38:30,230 --> 00:38:28,000
brain at some point discovers

1117
00:38:32,470 --> 00:38:30,240
the needs of a person of the needs of an

1118
00:38:35,030 --> 00:38:32,480
organism the organism that

1119
00:38:37,670 --> 00:38:35,040
its brain is embedded in

1120
00:38:39,190 --> 00:38:37,680
and it creates a model of that too

1121
00:38:40,630 --> 00:38:39,200
so it creates

1122
00:38:42,470 --> 00:38:40,640
an agent

1123
00:38:44,790 --> 00:38:42,480
that is observing this universe that is

1124
00:38:46,950 --> 00:38:44,800
embedded in this universe because this

1125
00:38:48,310 --> 00:38:46,960
first observer in our own mind is

1126
00:38:50,470 --> 00:38:48,320
discovering

1127
00:38:52,390 --> 00:38:50,480
that such an entity exists it's this

1128
00:38:54,069 --> 00:38:52,400
useful model to describe reality that

1129
00:38:56,710 --> 00:38:54,079
there is a person that has needs and

1130
00:38:59,510 --> 00:38:56,720
desires and social embedding and dreams

1131
00:39:01,349 --> 00:38:59,520
and hopes and memories and expectations

1132
00:39:04,550 --> 00:39:01,359
and it will create a story of that and

1133
00:39:06,550 --> 00:39:04,560
that story is just as real as the trees

1134
00:39:09,990 --> 00:39:06,560
that exist in our mind as imaginations

1135
00:39:13,349 --> 00:39:10,000
or the trees or um the uh that in the

1136
00:39:15,190 --> 00:39:13,359
forest and uh beyond the horizon and as

1137
00:39:16,950 --> 00:39:15,200
real as the sky and the clouds and the

1138
00:39:19,589 --> 00:39:16,960
colors and so on but they're all virtual

1139
00:39:21,750 --> 00:39:19,599
they're all simulacra they all exist to

1140
00:39:23,829 --> 00:39:21,760
tell a story to the organism that is

1141
00:39:24,710 --> 00:39:23,839
useful for the organism to model the

1142
00:39:28,150 --> 00:39:24,720
world

1143
00:39:29,990 --> 00:39:28,160
and this part where we become a person

1144
00:39:32,310 --> 00:39:30,000
seems to be happening i think around the

1145
00:39:34,870 --> 00:39:32,320
age of one and a half to two and a half

1146
00:39:36,550 --> 00:39:34,880
roughly in most children that i observed

1147
00:39:38,069 --> 00:39:36,560
and at this point a person that is

1148
00:39:40,230 --> 00:39:38,079
different from before emerges in their

1149
00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:40,240
mind it's not that there is nobody there

1150
00:39:42,950 --> 00:39:41,760
before it's just that this thing before

1151
00:39:44,310 --> 00:39:42,960
it's different

1152
00:39:46,230 --> 00:39:44,320
and you notice that there's a gap in

1153
00:39:47,030 --> 00:39:46,240
their memories they have memories when

1154
00:39:48,150 --> 00:39:47,040
they're

1155
00:39:50,470 --> 00:39:48,160
in the

1156
00:39:52,390 --> 00:39:50,480
first year when you talk to them

1157
00:39:55,030 --> 00:39:52,400
where they remember what happened

1158
00:39:56,630 --> 00:39:55,040
and have expectations already

1159
00:39:58,150 --> 00:39:56,640
but later on there is this point where

1160
00:40:00,069 --> 00:39:58,160
they don't remember these things anymore

1161
00:40:01,670 --> 00:40:00,079
it's very weird and most people when you

1162
00:40:04,309 --> 00:40:01,680
think back don't have memories that they

1163
00:40:06,550 --> 00:40:04,319
can consciously access between uh before

1164
00:40:08,230 --> 00:40:06,560
they're like two and a half years old

1165
00:40:09,990 --> 00:40:08,240
and so i wonder if this transition is

1166
00:40:11,910 --> 00:40:10,000
the result of just a re-indexing of

1167
00:40:14,550 --> 00:40:11,920
memories due to our newfound linguistic

1168
00:40:16,069 --> 00:40:14,560
ability so we can later on no longer

1169
00:40:18,630 --> 00:40:16,079
access these memories or if it's really

1170
00:40:20,550 --> 00:40:18,640
just uh basically a new agent that is

1171
00:40:21,430 --> 00:40:20,560
created by the first agent in its own

1172
00:40:23,349 --> 00:40:21,440
image

1173
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:23,359
as an observer that is aware of the fact

1174
00:40:28,470 --> 00:40:25,520
that it's observing

1175
00:40:30,150 --> 00:40:28,480
and uh but in a different way as men and

1176
00:40:32,950 --> 00:40:30,160
women as something that thinks it's a

1177
00:40:34,710 --> 00:40:32,960
person that thinks it's a human being

1178
00:40:36,470 --> 00:40:34,720
and i'm not a human being i realize that

1179
00:40:38,630 --> 00:40:36,480
at some level i don't have an identity

1180
00:40:41,270 --> 00:40:38,640
as a human being this is a story that my

1181
00:40:42,950 --> 00:40:41,280
mind tells itself as an additional thing

1182
00:40:45,030 --> 00:40:42,960
my consciousness doesn't have an

1183
00:40:46,710 --> 00:40:45,040
identity

1184
00:40:48,550 --> 00:40:46,720
my consciousness is also not of the

1185
00:40:50,950 --> 00:40:48,560
nature that it's the same as everybody

1186
00:40:53,910 --> 00:40:50,960
else's consciousness right it's

1187
00:40:55,190 --> 00:40:53,920
the question do we all uh are the same

1188
00:40:57,430 --> 00:40:55,200
consciousness looking through different

1189
00:40:59,109 --> 00:40:57,440
eyes or with separate consciousnesses is

1190
00:41:02,069 --> 00:40:59,119
in some sense as meaningless as the

1191
00:41:03,589 --> 00:41:02,079
question of asking is the text editor

1192
00:41:05,430 --> 00:41:03,599
that you're running onto your computer

1193
00:41:07,349 --> 00:41:05,440
the same text editor that everybody else

1194
00:41:10,309 --> 00:41:07,359
runs on their computer

1195
00:41:12,870 --> 00:41:10,319
or is it a different one

1196
00:41:15,589 --> 00:41:12,880
right the program word is in some sense

1197
00:41:17,510 --> 00:41:15,599
a natural law if you put the circuits of

1198
00:41:20,069 --> 00:41:17,520
your computer in the same

1199
00:41:21,430 --> 00:41:20,079
functional configuration then

1200
00:41:22,790 --> 00:41:21,440
those things are going to happen with

1201
00:41:24,950 --> 00:41:22,800
the circuits of your computer and they

1202
00:41:26,550 --> 00:41:24,960
will afford the following interactions

1203
00:41:28,470 --> 00:41:26,560
but the program word doesn't have an

1204
00:41:30,150 --> 00:41:28,480
identity and it's also not that it has

1205
00:41:32,309 --> 00:41:30,160
no identity in the sense it's just not a

1206
00:41:34,390 --> 00:41:32,319
meaningful category to apply to it in

1207
00:41:36,230 --> 00:41:34,400
the same sense my consciousness is not

1208
00:41:38,390 --> 00:41:36,240
in in this category that would have an

1209
00:41:39,990 --> 00:41:38,400
identity or none

1210
00:41:41,670 --> 00:41:40,000
so it's it's not something that is

1211
00:41:43,510 --> 00:41:41,680
shared with others and it's not

1212
00:41:45,750 --> 00:41:43,520
something that is separate from others

1213
00:41:47,589 --> 00:41:45,760
it's a principle that applies to the

1214
00:41:49,349 --> 00:41:47,599
observation and when the consciousness

1215
00:41:51,190 --> 00:41:49,359
gets tied to a self-model then it

1216
00:41:53,829 --> 00:41:51,200
becomes perspectival and i have an

1217
00:41:56,390 --> 00:41:53,839
identity and so on but this identity is

1218
00:42:00,069 --> 00:41:56,400
a particular kind of model that my

1219
00:42:03,190 --> 00:42:00,079
organism tells itself by changing um

1220
00:42:05,510 --> 00:42:03,200
certain factors in my own brain

1221
00:42:06,630 --> 00:42:05,520
okay let's let don respond

1222
00:42:08,069 --> 00:42:06,640
yeah there's well there's quite a bit

1223
00:42:11,030 --> 00:42:08,079
there

1224
00:42:12,390 --> 00:42:11,040
um so on the

1225
00:42:14,790 --> 00:42:12,400
the nature of

1226
00:42:16,630 --> 00:42:14,800
the physical world and and in

1227
00:42:18,790 --> 00:42:16,640
computation

1228
00:42:20,790 --> 00:42:18,800
um

1229
00:42:22,630 --> 00:42:20,800
and the finiteness

1230
00:42:25,270 --> 00:42:22,640
versus you contin continuity of

1231
00:42:26,470 --> 00:42:25,280
spacetime and so forth

1232
00:42:28,710 --> 00:42:26,480
i think that

1233
00:42:29,910 --> 00:42:28,720
the work you know girdles incompleteness

1234
00:42:32,309 --> 00:42:29,920
theorem

1235
00:42:33,910 --> 00:42:32,319
is is very relevant here that

1236
00:42:36,390 --> 00:42:33,920
the notion of

1237
00:42:38,550 --> 00:42:36,400
truth

1238
00:42:40,309 --> 00:42:38,560
is far deeper than the notion of proof

1239
00:42:42,309 --> 00:42:40,319
there are

1240
00:42:44,790 --> 00:42:42,319
any system

1241
00:42:46,470 --> 00:42:44,800
any computational system will have

1242
00:42:47,190 --> 00:42:46,480
things that it can prove

1243
00:42:48,950 --> 00:42:47,200
but

1244
00:42:50,790 --> 00:42:48,960
there will be truths

1245
00:42:52,470 --> 00:42:50,800
that that computational system cannot

1246
00:42:54,550 --> 00:42:52,480
access

1247
00:42:57,030 --> 00:42:54,560
um and if you add those new truth add a

1248
00:42:58,950 --> 00:42:57,040
new truth of you know a girl's statement

1249
00:43:01,430 --> 00:42:58,960
to your set of axioms and there will be

1250
00:43:03,109 --> 00:43:01,440
yet more truths that cannot be accessed

1251
00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:03,119
from that that that

1252
00:43:09,270 --> 00:43:06,240
and so what you can compute

1253
00:43:10,630 --> 00:43:09,280
is always going to be trivial

1254
00:43:13,589 --> 00:43:10,640
to what

1255
00:43:15,030 --> 00:43:13,599
is true there will always be

1256
00:43:17,670 --> 00:43:15,040
as far as i can tell again is sort of

1257
00:43:20,870 --> 00:43:17,680
like newton's notion of we're at the

1258
00:43:24,470 --> 00:43:20,880
seashore and the vast ocean

1259
00:43:26,230 --> 00:43:24,480
of of of reality of the truth he

1260
00:43:28,790 --> 00:43:26,240
actually used the word truth the vast

1261
00:43:30,950 --> 00:43:28,800
ocean of truths is out there beyond what

1262
00:43:34,390 --> 00:43:30,960
we can compute and every truth that you

1263
00:43:35,990 --> 00:43:34,400
add to your base for computation um

1264
00:43:36,710 --> 00:43:36,000
doesn't solve the problem

1265
00:43:40,790 --> 00:43:36,720
and

1266
00:43:42,870 --> 00:43:40,800
true you know of abstract mathematics

1267
00:43:45,430 --> 00:43:42,880
but that's not true of physics

1268
00:43:46,550 --> 00:43:45,440
i mean the physics itself is computable

1269
00:43:49,990 --> 00:43:46,560
but that

1270
00:43:51,589 --> 00:43:50,000
um there's some recent work um

1271
00:43:54,069 --> 00:43:51,599
suggesting that that's that's not the

1272
00:43:56,069 --> 00:43:54,079
case so um

1273
00:43:59,030 --> 00:43:56,079
tony kubit

1274
00:44:02,230 --> 00:43:59,040
the physicist and and his colleagues

1275
00:44:04,309 --> 00:44:02,240
have have recently proved that

1276
00:44:05,910 --> 00:44:04,319
a very important problem to condense

1277
00:44:09,750 --> 00:44:05,920
matter physicists

1278
00:44:12,870 --> 00:44:09,760
called the spectral gap problem

1279
00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:12,880
um is not computable

1280
00:44:21,030 --> 00:44:14,880
and

1281
00:44:23,190 --> 00:44:21,040
they haven't proven this yet but that

1282
00:44:24,710 --> 00:44:23,200
something that that's a big open problem

1283
00:44:26,470 --> 00:44:24,720
i think the millennium

1284
00:44:29,030 --> 00:44:26,480
prize committee has this is one of their

1285
00:44:30,870 --> 00:44:29,040
problems is to understand the the yang

1286
00:44:33,589 --> 00:44:30,880
mills gas gap

1287
00:44:35,990 --> 00:44:33,599
problem which is you know why do

1288
00:44:36,950 --> 00:44:36,000
photons and gravitons have no mass but

1289
00:44:40,630 --> 00:44:36,960
the

1290
00:44:42,710 --> 00:44:40,640
have mass

1291
00:44:44,309 --> 00:44:42,720
and kubit and his

1292
00:44:47,990 --> 00:44:44,319
collaborators think again that we're

1293
00:44:51,589 --> 00:44:49,829
non-computational is going on here it's

1294
00:44:53,829 --> 00:44:51,599
not decidable

1295
00:44:55,030 --> 00:44:53,839
and my guess is that this is just the

1296
00:44:56,550 --> 00:44:55,040
beginning

1297
00:44:59,510 --> 00:44:56,560
that we're going to find that as

1298
00:45:00,550 --> 00:44:59,520
powerful as computation is and you know

1299
00:46:04,870 --> 00:45:00,560
i

1300
00:46:07,349 --> 00:46:04,880
you on the seashore

1301
00:46:08,309 --> 00:46:07,359
and so that that's why

1302
00:46:10,309 --> 00:46:08,319
i mean

1303
00:46:12,550 --> 00:46:10,319
i i didn't like that conclusion but you

1304
00:46:14,309 --> 00:46:12,560
know girdle proved it and now physicists

1305
00:46:16,630 --> 00:46:14,319
are finding it in you know the spectral

1306
00:46:18,309 --> 00:46:16,640
gap and so

1307
00:46:20,630 --> 00:46:18,319
as much as i like computation i'm a

1308
00:46:22,230 --> 00:46:20,640
computer scientist myself as much as i

1309
00:46:24,150 --> 00:46:22,240
like computation

1310
00:46:27,030 --> 00:46:24,160
i have to defer to the mathematical

1311
00:46:29,349 --> 00:46:27,040
proofs that say um computation goes thus

1312
00:46:31,510 --> 00:46:29,359
far and no further

1313
00:46:35,270 --> 00:46:31,520
and then ask myself okay

1314
00:46:36,950 --> 00:46:35,280
how can so my my conceptual system then

1315
00:46:40,630 --> 00:46:36,960
is itself

1316
00:46:43,270 --> 00:46:40,640
just a symbolic system

1317
00:46:46,790 --> 00:46:43,280
with derivation rules so what i what i

1318
00:46:49,109 --> 00:46:46,800
can compute by my my thought is also

1319
00:46:50,309 --> 00:46:49,119
going to be limited which is why i was

1320
00:46:52,390 --> 00:46:50,319
saying up front what i think about

1321
00:46:53,829 --> 00:46:52,400
scientific theories right scientific

1322
00:46:55,990 --> 00:46:53,839
theories are going to have these

1323
00:46:57,750 --> 00:46:56,000
limitations we will put down a set of

1324
00:46:59,589 --> 00:46:57,760
axioms

1325
00:47:02,550 --> 00:46:59,599
each theory a good scientific theory

1326
00:47:03,910 --> 00:47:02,560
will tell you exactly what it assumes

1327
00:47:05,430 --> 00:47:03,920
and

1328
00:47:06,790 --> 00:47:05,440
it will also give you a hint about the

1329
00:47:09,430 --> 00:47:06,800
kind of derivations that you can give

1330
00:47:11,910 --> 00:47:09,440
from those assumptions and then you use

1331
00:47:14,470 --> 00:47:11,920
you find what that theory will entail

1332
00:47:15,990 --> 00:47:14,480
but our best theories

1333
00:47:18,710 --> 00:47:16,000
uh like

1334
00:47:20,470 --> 00:47:18,720
quantum theory and relativity and

1335
00:47:22,470 --> 00:47:20,480
evolution of natural selection

1336
00:47:24,470 --> 00:47:22,480
the best theories will also tell you

1337
00:47:26,630 --> 00:47:24,480
where they stop they will say we go this

1338
00:47:29,349 --> 00:47:26,640
far and no further

1339
00:47:30,710 --> 00:47:29,359
and and for example

1340
00:47:32,309 --> 00:47:30,720
physics tells us

1341
00:47:34,549 --> 00:47:32,319
that

1342
00:47:36,870 --> 00:47:34,559
space time itself cannot be fundamental

1343
00:47:38,549 --> 00:47:36,880
that the very notion of space-time

1344
00:47:41,190 --> 00:47:38,559
cannot be fundamental which is stunning

1345
00:47:43,109 --> 00:47:41,200
because physics for several centuries

1346
00:47:44,950 --> 00:47:43,119
has essentially been the study of what

1347
00:47:46,710 --> 00:47:44,960
happens in space and time

1348
00:47:47,910 --> 00:47:46,720
and so to say that space time is not

1349
00:47:49,910 --> 00:47:47,920
fundamental

1350
00:47:51,990 --> 00:47:49,920
means that the physicists have to

1351
00:47:54,630 --> 00:47:52,000
redefine what what physics is about and

1352
00:47:57,190 --> 00:47:54,640
that's what for example juan maldocena

1353
00:47:58,790 --> 00:47:57,200
and neymar connie hamid are trying to do

1354
00:48:00,710 --> 00:47:58,800
with things like the cosmological

1355
00:48:01,750 --> 00:48:00,720
polytope and amplitude and so forth

1356
00:48:04,150 --> 00:48:01,760
they're finding

1357
00:48:06,870 --> 00:48:04,160
structures where there are no hilbert

1358
00:48:08,470 --> 00:48:06,880
spaces so there's no quantum theory

1359
00:48:09,910 --> 00:48:08,480
there is no time

1360
00:48:12,470 --> 00:48:09,920
there is no space

1361
00:48:15,990 --> 00:48:12,480
there are these positive geometries and

1362
00:48:18,069 --> 00:48:16,000
what you find is you can predict

1363
00:48:19,670 --> 00:48:18,079
events in space time like scattering

1364
00:48:21,829 --> 00:48:19,680
processes that you see at the large

1365
00:48:23,430 --> 00:48:21,839
hadron collider you can predict them and

1366
00:48:24,950 --> 00:48:23,440
in fact you

1367
00:48:26,630 --> 00:48:24,960
you can actually

1368
00:48:29,109 --> 00:48:26,640
compute them

1369
00:48:31,430 --> 00:48:29,119
in some sense better than if you assume

1370
00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:31,440
space time so they're finding that what

1371
00:48:35,510 --> 00:48:33,119
you know if you use feynman diagrams and

1372
00:48:37,510 --> 00:48:35,520
try to compute scattering amplitudes for

1373
00:48:39,910 --> 00:48:37,520
two gluons coming in and four gluons

1374
00:48:41,750 --> 00:48:39,920
scattering out using the standard

1375
00:48:43,829 --> 00:48:41,760
quantum field theoretic approaches where

1376
00:48:45,829 --> 00:48:43,839
space and time is assumed you get

1377
00:48:48,150 --> 00:48:45,839
hundreds of pages of algebra and it's

1378
00:48:49,990 --> 00:48:48,160
it's it's a mask whereas if you let go

1379
00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:50,000
space time and and look at these

1380
00:48:52,549 --> 00:48:51,040
structures

1381
00:48:54,150 --> 00:48:52,559
uh with symmetries that cannot be

1382
00:48:56,309 --> 00:48:54,160
expressed in space timeline dual

1383
00:48:57,510 --> 00:48:56,319
conformal symmetry then you find that

1384
00:48:59,589 --> 00:48:57,520
the the

1385
00:49:02,470 --> 00:48:59,599
the same scattering amplitudes can be

1386
00:49:04,549 --> 00:49:02,480
processed in just two or three um terms

1387
00:49:07,030 --> 00:49:04,559
that you can write down pen and paper on

1388
00:49:09,030 --> 00:49:07,040
a sheet of paper so all of a sudden you

1389
00:49:11,510 --> 00:49:09,040
so what they're seeing is space time has

1390
00:49:13,910 --> 00:49:11,520
had a good run

1391
00:49:16,870 --> 00:49:13,920
but if you force yourself to stick with

1392
00:49:18,950 --> 00:49:16,880
space time then the math is ugly you get

1393
00:49:20,710 --> 00:49:18,960
hundreds of pages of algebra to compute

1394
00:49:23,190 --> 00:49:20,720
scattering amplitudes you can't see the

1395
00:49:25,030 --> 00:49:23,200
symmetries that are there like dual

1396
00:49:27,190 --> 00:49:25,040
conformal symmetry if you let go

1397
00:49:28,470 --> 00:49:27,200
space-time you're finding these amazing

1398
00:49:29,589 --> 00:49:28,480
structures that they don't know what

1399
00:49:31,270 --> 00:49:29,599
they're about

1400
00:49:33,109 --> 00:49:31,280
but all of a sudden you see the right

1401
00:49:34,230 --> 00:49:33,119
symmetries and the computations become

1402
00:49:36,069 --> 00:49:34,240
trivial

1403
00:49:38,309 --> 00:49:36,079
so there's some big hint

1404
00:49:40,390 --> 00:49:38,319
that um i think

1405
00:49:42,390 --> 00:49:40,400
on a couple fronts from girdle

1406
00:49:43,990 --> 00:49:42,400
and from the work by tony kubit and his

1407
00:49:47,030 --> 00:49:44,000
team that

1408
00:49:48,470 --> 00:49:47,040
the computation is as as powerful as it

1409
00:49:50,309 --> 00:49:48,480
is and as much as i love it as a you

1410
00:49:53,510 --> 00:49:50,319
know ai person

1411
00:49:55,030 --> 00:49:53,520
and a cognitive scientist it it it has

1412
00:49:56,549 --> 00:49:55,040
it's always going to be on the seashore

1413
00:49:57,349 --> 00:49:56,559
with newton

1414
00:50:00,069 --> 00:49:57,359
and

1415
00:50:01,990 --> 00:50:00,079
when we let go space-time

1416
00:50:03,510 --> 00:50:02,000
we're still of course as theorists

1417
00:50:05,510 --> 00:50:03,520
always going to have

1418
00:50:07,270 --> 00:50:05,520
a finite set of axioms and and

1419
00:50:09,349 --> 00:50:07,280
derivations about you know like the

1420
00:50:13,109 --> 00:50:09,359
cosmological polytope and and and so

1421
00:50:14,870 --> 00:50:13,119
forth that nema and juan are finding

1422
00:50:17,030 --> 00:50:14,880
we're still going to have a finite set

1423
00:50:17,910 --> 00:50:17,040
of concepts and derivations so we're not

1424
00:50:20,150 --> 00:50:17,920
going to get around girdle's

1425
00:50:23,589 --> 00:50:20,160
incompleteness there but at least we're

1426
00:50:25,430 --> 00:50:23,599
we're going beyond the notion of time

1427
00:50:27,030 --> 00:50:25,440
which is really critical

1428
00:50:29,510 --> 00:50:27,040
and and

1429
00:50:31,670 --> 00:50:29,520
and that also cuts at the computational

1430
00:50:34,230 --> 00:50:31,680
issues pretty interesting computational

1431
00:50:36,150 --> 00:50:34,240
complexity is is about you know a lot of

1432
00:50:37,349 --> 00:50:36,160
it's about time complexity

1433
00:50:38,790 --> 00:50:37,359
and

1434
00:50:40,390 --> 00:50:38,800
what physicists are telling us is that

1435
00:50:41,670 --> 00:50:40,400
ultimately

1436
00:50:43,829 --> 00:50:41,680
we're gonna have to let go of the notion

1437
00:50:45,750 --> 00:50:43,839
of time and so as computer scientists

1438
00:50:47,910 --> 00:50:45,760
we're gonna have to rethink complexity

1439
00:50:50,069 --> 00:50:47,920
issues when the very notion of time

1440
00:50:52,069 --> 00:50:50,079
itself isn't fundamental

1441
00:50:55,190 --> 00:50:52,079
so that that's gonna be a real

1442
00:50:57,190 --> 00:50:55,200
a real kicker for for us in in computer

1443
00:50:59,030 --> 00:50:57,200
science how do we think about complexity

1444
00:51:00,630 --> 00:50:59,040
issues when time itself is not the right

1445
00:51:02,150 --> 00:51:00,640
way to think about things

1446
00:51:04,470 --> 00:51:02,160
and and therefore the sequence of

1447
00:51:06,309 --> 00:51:04,480
computations in time is not the right

1448
00:51:09,510 --> 00:51:06,319
way to think about things we have some

1449
00:51:11,270 --> 00:51:09,520
really deep thinking to do ahead

1450
00:51:12,870 --> 00:51:11,280
but

1451
00:51:15,670 --> 00:51:12,880
where i i think

1452
00:51:17,750 --> 00:51:15,680
we share some common ground yoshi is

1453
00:51:19,990 --> 00:51:17,760
i think that a lot of

1454
00:51:21,510 --> 00:51:20,000
our experiences and so forth our models

1455
00:51:22,549 --> 00:51:21,520
that we built i think that we are

1456
00:51:25,190 --> 00:51:22,559
building

1457
00:51:26,870 --> 00:51:25,200
internal models

1458
00:51:30,309 --> 00:51:26,880
but the question is what is the

1459
00:51:31,750 --> 00:51:30,319
apparatus that's building those models

1460
00:51:36,069 --> 00:51:31,760
and

1461
00:51:38,309 --> 00:51:36,079
time

1462
00:51:40,630 --> 00:51:38,319
it so in particular

1463
00:51:42,710 --> 00:51:40,640
i'll be very very explicit i i don't

1464
00:51:45,030 --> 00:51:42,720
think that neurons exist

1465
00:51:46,710 --> 00:51:45,040
when they're not perceived

1466
00:51:48,150 --> 00:51:46,720
i don't think space-time exists when

1467
00:51:50,390 --> 00:51:48,160
it's not perceived

1468
00:51:52,390 --> 00:51:50,400
i think neurons in space-time

1469
00:51:54,390 --> 00:51:52,400
and even particles

1470
00:51:55,670 --> 00:51:54,400
are are

1471
00:51:58,630 --> 00:51:55,680
simply

1472
00:52:01,750 --> 00:51:58,640
data structures

1473
00:52:05,510 --> 00:52:02,950
and

1474
00:52:06,950 --> 00:52:05,520
there is a a formulation of quantum

1475
00:52:09,190 --> 00:52:06,960
theory that that's very similar to this

1476
00:52:11,190 --> 00:52:09,200
is called cubism quantum basianism chris

1477
00:52:13,349 --> 00:52:11,200
fuchs and david merman

1478
00:52:15,270 --> 00:52:13,359
where where they they take this point of

1479
00:52:17,510 --> 00:52:15,280
view that it's the

1480
00:52:18,390 --> 00:52:17,520
every act of observation

1481
00:52:21,109 --> 00:52:18,400
in physics

1482
00:52:23,750 --> 00:52:21,119
every experiment that you do is an act

1483
00:52:25,910 --> 00:52:23,760
of fact creation

1484
00:52:27,750 --> 00:52:25,920
right that that it's not that there are

1485
00:52:29,430 --> 00:52:27,760
pre-existing particles with pre-existing

1486
00:52:31,109 --> 00:52:29,440
states and you're measuring

1487
00:52:34,630 --> 00:52:31,119
those those states

1488
00:52:36,710 --> 00:52:34,640
rather the it's their their you know

1489
00:52:38,309 --> 00:52:36,720
their subjective bayesians so all the

1490
00:52:39,670 --> 00:52:38,319
probabilities in quantum theory are

1491
00:52:41,430 --> 00:52:39,680
subjective probabilities they're not

1492
00:52:43,750 --> 00:52:41,440
objective probabilities

1493
00:52:44,790 --> 00:52:43,760
and every outcome is a

1494
00:52:47,190 --> 00:52:44,800
um

1495
00:52:49,190 --> 00:52:47,200
a fact creation and they they do have i

1496
00:52:51,910 --> 00:52:49,200
mean chris pukes has a very interesting

1497
00:52:52,710 --> 00:52:51,920
2010 paper called cubism

1498
00:52:54,470 --> 00:52:52,720
um

1499
00:52:56,390 --> 00:52:54,480
that i highly recommend and in that

1500
00:52:57,510 --> 00:52:56,400
paper he actually points to very

1501
00:52:58,829 --> 00:52:57,520
interesting

1502
00:53:03,750 --> 00:52:58,839
um

1503
00:53:06,630 --> 00:53:03,760
that there's a sequence of

1504
00:53:08,950 --> 00:53:06,640
what what what's proven is that even if

1505
00:53:10,309 --> 00:53:08,960
you know what the outcome of your

1506
00:53:12,470 --> 00:53:10,319
experiment is going to be with

1507
00:53:14,470 --> 00:53:12,480
probability one

1508
00:53:15,990 --> 00:53:14,480
that does not entail that the outcome is

1509
00:53:17,829 --> 00:53:16,000
there and exists independent of your

1510
00:53:19,670 --> 00:53:17,839
observation

1511
00:53:20,950 --> 00:53:19,680
that's a stunning thing to say is the

1512
00:53:22,470 --> 00:53:20,960
probability one you know with

1513
00:53:24,790 --> 00:53:22,480
probability of one what you're going to

1514
00:53:26,710 --> 00:53:24,800
measure and yet you can prove

1515
00:53:29,349 --> 00:53:26,720
with with quantum mechanics that it's

1516
00:53:31,829 --> 00:53:29,359
impossible that the outcome was there

1517
00:53:32,950 --> 00:53:31,839
the the value existed before you made

1518
00:53:35,589 --> 00:53:32,960
the measurement

1519
00:53:38,309 --> 00:53:35,599
so that the it's really the case that

1520
00:53:39,750 --> 00:53:38,319
the acts of observation are fact

1521
00:53:40,549 --> 00:53:39,760
creations

1522
00:53:43,349 --> 00:53:40,559
not

1523
00:53:45,190 --> 00:53:43,359
fact discoveries

1524
00:53:50,470 --> 00:53:45,200
so

1525
00:53:52,230 --> 00:53:50,480
the work that's done in consciousness

1526
00:53:54,150 --> 00:53:52,240
assumes

1527
00:53:55,829 --> 00:53:54,160
i would say this is 99 of the theories

1528
00:53:58,390 --> 00:53:55,839
that i've seen in consciousness

1529
00:54:00,069 --> 00:53:58,400
assume that space-time is fundamental

1530
00:54:02,150 --> 00:54:00,079
assume that physical particles are

1531
00:54:04,150 --> 00:54:02,160
fundamental and that somehow neural

1532
00:54:05,750 --> 00:54:04,160
activity

1533
00:54:07,990 --> 00:54:05,760
in humans

1534
00:54:11,270 --> 00:54:08,000
and perhaps other kinds of more complex

1535
00:54:13,670 --> 00:54:11,280
activity in ais creates creates

1536
00:54:15,270 --> 00:54:13,680
consciousness but but the very founding

1537
00:54:17,030 --> 00:54:15,280
assumptions that space-time is

1538
00:54:19,430 --> 00:54:17,040
fundamental that neurons exist when

1539
00:54:21,430 --> 00:54:19,440
they're when they're not perceived

1540
00:54:23,349 --> 00:54:21,440
contradicts our best physics and it also

1541
00:54:24,790 --> 00:54:23,359
contradicts evolution of natural

1542
00:54:25,589 --> 00:54:24,800
selection

1543
00:54:29,829 --> 00:54:25,599
which

1544
00:54:32,069 --> 00:54:29,839
natural selection makes it very clear

1545
00:54:35,990 --> 00:54:32,079
that the probability is zero

1546
00:54:37,750 --> 00:54:36,000
that the sensory systems of any organism

1547
00:54:39,589 --> 00:54:37,760
tell them any truths about objective

1548
00:54:41,670 --> 00:54:39,599
reality

1549
00:54:43,430 --> 00:54:41,680
they tell it what what they tell

1550
00:54:45,750 --> 00:54:43,440
organisms sensory systems evolve to tell

1551
00:54:47,510 --> 00:54:45,760
organisms how to behave in order to stay

1552
00:54:48,789 --> 00:54:47,520
alive period

1553
00:54:49,750 --> 00:54:48,799
that's it

1554
00:54:55,109 --> 00:54:49,760
and

1555
00:54:57,030 --> 00:54:55,119
for you know staying alive but but gives

1556
00:54:58,470 --> 00:54:57,040
you no access to the truth and that that

1557
00:55:00,789 --> 00:54:58,480
fits with what physics is telling us

1558
00:55:03,510 --> 00:55:00,799
that that space time is a user interface

1559
00:55:05,030 --> 00:55:03,520
but it's not the final truth and so so

1560
00:55:07,750 --> 00:55:05,040
what i want from

1561
00:55:10,150 --> 00:55:07,760
a theory of consciousness

1562
00:55:12,630 --> 00:55:10,160
as a scientist is i want a clear

1563
00:55:13,910 --> 00:55:12,640
statement of what are the what am i

1564
00:55:15,910 --> 00:55:13,920
assuming

1565
00:55:18,069 --> 00:55:15,920
what are the exact things that my theory

1566
00:55:20,549 --> 00:55:18,079
takes is primitive

1567
00:55:22,630 --> 00:55:20,559
what are the exact rules that

1568
00:55:25,030 --> 00:55:22,640
that allow me to drive things from those

1569
00:55:27,270 --> 00:55:25,040
primitives and how exactly do i get the

1570
00:55:29,270 --> 00:55:27,280
taste of chocolate from that

1571
00:55:31,670 --> 00:55:29,280
that's that's what i'm looking for from

1572
00:55:33,589 --> 00:55:31,680
from the theory of consciousness precise

1573
00:55:36,309 --> 00:55:33,599
statement of exactly what i'm assuming

1574
00:55:38,150 --> 00:55:36,319
up front with mathematical precision and

1575
00:55:39,430 --> 00:55:38,160
then precise derivation if i'm not

1576
00:55:42,470 --> 00:55:39,440
taking the taste of chocolate is

1577
00:55:44,150 --> 00:55:42,480
fundamental if i'm saying that somehow

1578
00:55:46,069 --> 00:55:44,160
some dynamical system is going to give

1579
00:55:48,789 --> 00:55:46,079
it to me then i want to know exactly

1580
00:55:50,549 --> 00:55:48,799
which dynamical system is

1581
00:55:52,390 --> 00:55:50,559
giving me the taste of chocolate and why

1582
00:55:54,870 --> 00:55:52,400
that dynamical system could not be the

1583
00:55:56,630 --> 00:55:54,880
smell of garlic i want to know exactly

1584
00:55:58,549 --> 00:55:56,640
otherwise there's no there's no real

1585
00:56:01,109 --> 00:55:58,559
science on the table

1586
00:56:02,470 --> 00:56:01,119
at all so that's what i'm looking for is

1587
00:56:04,710 --> 00:56:02,480
theories that say exactly what the

1588
00:56:06,470 --> 00:56:04,720
assumptions are and tell me exactly for

1589
00:56:09,270 --> 00:56:06,480
at least one specific conscious

1590
00:56:10,309 --> 00:56:09,280
experience how that conscious experience

1591
00:56:12,069 --> 00:56:10,319
must be

1592
00:56:15,030 --> 00:56:12,079
derived in that way and so so that's

1593
00:56:18,069 --> 00:56:15,040
where i'm coming from on those now in

1594
00:56:20,309 --> 00:56:18,079
the case of of cells and the brain

1595
00:56:21,829 --> 00:56:20,319
i i would just mention something that's

1596
00:56:24,950 --> 00:56:21,839
very interesting that you probably know

1597
00:56:27,990 --> 00:56:24,960
about mike levin's work um

1598
00:56:28,870 --> 00:56:28,000
right and and so he's finding that

1599
00:56:31,589 --> 00:56:28,880
that

1600
00:56:34,950 --> 00:56:31,599
cells not just neurons but but any cell

1601
00:56:36,630 --> 00:56:34,960
in in in animals that in fact

1602
00:56:39,430 --> 00:56:36,640
outside of the brain

1603
00:56:41,510 --> 00:56:39,440
they they can learn

1604
00:56:43,030 --> 00:56:41,520
and they can compute

1605
00:56:45,510 --> 00:56:43,040
and they can

1606
00:56:48,630 --> 00:56:45,520
do morphogenesis of you know of of of

1607
00:56:50,230 --> 00:56:48,640
the cell's body they use gap junction

1608
00:56:52,549 --> 00:56:50,240
communication electric

1609
00:56:54,870 --> 00:56:52,559
so they're effectively um

1610
00:56:57,510 --> 00:56:54,880
doing what neurons do but in a very very

1611
00:56:59,670 --> 00:56:57,520
different way and and this is all cells

1612
00:57:02,630 --> 00:56:59,680
can communicate with in this way with

1613
00:57:04,710 --> 00:57:02,640
gap junctions and so forth so i suspect

1614
00:57:10,309 --> 00:57:04,720
that

1615
00:57:12,230 --> 00:57:10,319
neurons aren't special in in the sense

1616
00:57:14,230 --> 00:57:12,240
of being information processors that

1617
00:57:16,150 --> 00:57:14,240
that that information processing and

1618
00:57:18,390 --> 00:57:16,160
this seems to be where where mike was is

1619
00:57:19,430 --> 00:57:18,400
heading um is that that information

1620
00:57:20,630 --> 00:57:19,440
processing

1621
00:57:23,190 --> 00:57:20,640
is happening in what he calls these

1622
00:57:25,670 --> 00:57:23,200
bioelectric fields um even if there are

1623
00:57:28,150 --> 00:57:25,680
no neurons and that they can learn they

1624
00:57:30,069 --> 00:57:28,160
can retain memories and they can be very

1625
00:57:31,430 --> 00:57:30,079
intelligent and so so even as

1626
00:57:33,349 --> 00:57:31,440
neuroscientists

1627
00:57:35,750 --> 00:57:33,359
we may find that we'll have to expand

1628
00:57:37,030 --> 00:57:35,760
our horizons beyond

1629
00:57:38,630 --> 00:57:37,040
neuroscience

1630
00:57:40,950 --> 00:57:38,640
and understand if if i were a

1631
00:57:42,710 --> 00:57:40,960
reductionist and trying to do biological

1632
00:57:45,270 --> 00:57:42,720
reduction i would at this point with

1633
00:57:47,829 --> 00:57:45,280
mike levin's stuff be be interested to

1634
00:57:49,750 --> 00:57:47,839
say oh well maybe i wouldn't necessarily

1635
00:57:51,589 --> 00:57:49,760
reduce consciousness to neural activity

1636
00:57:53,430 --> 00:57:51,599
maybe these gap junctions and the

1637
00:57:54,950 --> 00:57:53,440
computations that cells can do would

1638
00:57:56,630 --> 00:57:54,960
also be

1639
00:57:58,470 --> 00:57:56,640
a suitable

1640
00:58:00,630 --> 00:57:58,480
format but but again i'm not a

1641
00:58:04,549 --> 00:58:00,640
reductionist in that sense but i'll stop

1642
00:58:09,190 --> 00:58:06,230
thank you um

1643
00:58:11,510 --> 00:58:09,200
you went very far and right and try to

1644
00:58:13,349 --> 00:58:11,520
be a little bit more concise

1645
00:58:15,109 --> 00:58:13,359
let's start out with good

1646
00:58:18,309 --> 00:58:15,119
good spoof had a

1647
00:58:21,589 --> 00:58:18,319
very profound and not necessarily very

1648
00:58:22,549 --> 00:58:21,599
positive influence on philosophy

1649
00:58:27,430 --> 00:58:22,559
and

1650
00:58:29,589 --> 00:58:27,440
philosophy opened up a tradition that

1651
00:58:31,750 --> 00:58:29,599
where the underlying current is that

1652
00:58:33,190 --> 00:58:31,760
what goodl has shown is that mathematics

1653
00:58:35,670 --> 00:58:33,200
is important

1654
00:58:37,109 --> 00:58:35,680
to describe reality

1655
00:58:38,870 --> 00:58:37,119
and therefore

1656
00:58:40,630 --> 00:58:38,880
reality can only be described by people

1657
00:58:41,990 --> 00:58:40,640
who don't really know mathematics that

1658
00:58:43,910 --> 00:58:42,000
is philosophers

1659
00:58:46,150 --> 00:58:43,920
so philosophers like that intuition

1660
00:58:48,549 --> 00:58:46,160
right but it implies that there is

1661
00:58:51,270 --> 00:58:48,559
something beyond mathematics

1662
00:58:53,030 --> 00:58:51,280
that allows you to make sense of things

1663
00:58:55,910 --> 00:58:53,040
that assign truth

1664
00:58:57,990 --> 00:58:55,920
and uh slightly deeper when you say that

1665
00:59:00,230 --> 00:58:58,000
uh you like computation and you value it

1666
00:59:01,750 --> 00:59:00,240
and so on and you see its limits it

1667
00:59:03,349 --> 00:59:01,760
implies that you see what comes beyond

1668
00:59:05,589 --> 00:59:03,359
these limits and you're using that thing

1669
00:59:07,270 --> 00:59:05,599
beyond the limits to think

1670
00:59:09,670 --> 00:59:07,280
and i don't think that you are

1671
00:59:11,990 --> 00:59:09,680
everything in my own mind that i can

1672
00:59:14,390 --> 00:59:12,000
observe when i observe myself perceiving

1673
00:59:19,109 --> 00:59:14,400
when i perceive myself

1674
00:59:21,270 --> 00:59:19,119
reasoning is computational it means that

1675
00:59:23,349 --> 00:59:21,280
i go to from state to state

1676
00:59:25,510 --> 00:59:23,359
in a somewhat deterministic way the

1677
00:59:27,510 --> 00:59:25,520
random parts are just deleting bits that

1678
00:59:29,190 --> 00:59:27,520
i computed before so i have to do it

1679
00:59:32,069 --> 00:59:29,200
again the randomness and determinism

1680
00:59:34,549 --> 00:59:32,079
doesn't help me so the part of my mind

1681
00:59:36,950 --> 00:59:34,559
that is relevant to my thinking is

1682
00:59:39,670 --> 00:59:36,960
fundamentally computational what girdle

1683
00:59:41,670 --> 00:59:39,680
discovered and is often misunderstood

1684
00:59:44,150 --> 00:59:41,680
and also by gordo himself

1685
00:59:45,750 --> 00:59:44,160
is is a very important thing

1686
00:59:48,549 --> 00:59:45,760
what girdle has discovered is not that

1687
00:59:51,030 --> 00:59:48,559
truth is deeper than proof

1688
00:59:53,589 --> 00:59:51,040
that was in some sense the suspicion

1689
00:59:56,870 --> 00:59:53,599
which he started with he knew that

1690
00:59:58,789 --> 00:59:56,880
in his view that truth is platonic

1691
01:00:00,549 --> 00:59:58,799
that things can be true or not

1692
01:00:02,710 --> 01:00:00,559
regardless of whether we find out or

1693
01:00:03,990 --> 01:00:02,720
whether it can be found out

1694
01:00:05,990 --> 01:00:04,000
and he hoped

1695
01:00:08,789 --> 01:00:06,000
to find a notion of truth

1696
01:00:10,549 --> 01:00:08,799
of proof that could reach truth

1697
01:00:13,190 --> 01:00:10,559
and he found that it couldn't and he

1698
01:00:15,510 --> 01:00:13,200
found this in a devastating way

1699
01:00:17,190 --> 01:00:15,520
and he drew the conclusion that there is

1700
01:00:18,950 --> 01:00:17,200
truth that cannot be found with

1701
01:00:21,349 --> 01:00:18,960
mathematics

1702
01:00:24,150 --> 01:00:21,359
and the opposite is true

1703
01:00:25,829 --> 01:00:24,160
there is no deeper notion of truth than

1704
01:00:27,430 --> 01:00:25,839
proof

1705
01:00:29,430 --> 01:00:27,440
you see a

1706
01:00:31,030 --> 01:00:29,440
perception cannot be true or false

1707
01:00:33,270 --> 01:00:31,040
perception just is

1708
01:00:35,270 --> 01:00:33,280
physics physical events out there in the

1709
01:00:37,270 --> 01:00:35,280
universe cannot be true or false they

1710
01:00:39,670 --> 01:00:37,280
just are a pattern that you observe is

1711
01:00:41,349 --> 01:00:39,680
not true or false it just is

1712
01:00:42,710 --> 01:00:41,359
right you could be erroneously thinking

1713
01:00:44,390 --> 01:00:42,720
that you're perceiving a pattern when

1714
01:00:46,710 --> 01:00:44,400
you don't because you're suffering from

1715
01:00:48,309 --> 01:00:46,720
false memory or a delusion or whatever

1716
01:00:51,270 --> 01:00:48,319
that makes your thinking or perception

1717
01:00:53,430 --> 01:00:51,280
inconsistent but the pattern itself is

1718
01:00:55,670 --> 01:00:53,440
not true or false it's an interpretation

1719
01:00:57,910 --> 01:00:55,680
that can be true or false and the

1720
01:00:59,829 --> 01:00:57,920
interpretation is has to be in a

1721
01:01:01,510 --> 01:00:59,839
symbolic language to have the property

1722
01:01:03,829 --> 01:01:01,520
that can be true or false a perceptual

1723
01:01:05,510 --> 01:01:03,839
interpretation by itself is not true or

1724
01:01:07,829 --> 01:01:05,520
false it just is

1725
01:01:10,230 --> 01:01:07,839
right so in order to be true or false

1726
01:01:12,150 --> 01:01:10,240
you need to have a language and the

1727
01:01:14,710 --> 01:01:12,160
language needs to be defined in such a

1728
01:01:16,789 --> 01:01:14,720
way that truths can be established and

1729
01:01:18,390 --> 01:01:16,799
the process of establishing truth is a

1730
01:01:20,309 --> 01:01:18,400
computation

1731
01:01:23,190 --> 01:01:20,319
and there are two types of languages in

1732
01:01:24,710 --> 01:01:23,200
which truths can be defined

1733
01:01:27,270 --> 01:01:24,720
and the language of classical

1734
01:01:29,910 --> 01:01:27,280
mathematics is a stateless language

1735
01:01:32,230 --> 01:01:29,920
it's one where time doesn't exist where

1736
01:01:34,230 --> 01:01:32,240
everything happens all at once or in

1737
01:01:36,309 --> 01:01:34,240
some kind of eternal moment

1738
01:01:38,150 --> 01:01:36,319
so if you want to go from state to state

1739
01:01:39,510 --> 01:01:38,160
in this language of eternal mathematics

1740
01:01:41,349 --> 01:01:39,520
in the stateless language you just

1741
01:01:43,430 --> 01:01:41,359
assign an index and then you iterate of

1742
01:01:45,750 --> 01:01:43,440
the index and you do this in a single

1743
01:01:48,150 --> 01:01:45,760
instant in one moment

1744
01:01:49,990 --> 01:01:48,160
and the stateless mathematics has a very

1745
01:01:51,670 --> 01:01:50,000
beautiful property it allows you to deal

1746
01:01:54,069 --> 01:01:51,680
with infinities because you can now

1747
01:01:56,230 --> 01:01:54,079
construct functions that take infinitely

1748
01:01:57,829 --> 01:01:56,240
many arguments in a single step

1749
01:01:59,750 --> 01:01:57,839
perform an operation over them in a

1750
01:02:01,190 --> 01:01:59,760
single step and give the result back in

1751
01:02:03,109 --> 01:02:01,200
a single step

1752
01:02:05,510 --> 01:02:03,119
it's a language in which you can assign

1753
01:02:07,190 --> 01:02:05,520
a value to pi

1754
01:02:08,870 --> 01:02:07,200
right in the computational system you

1755
01:02:10,069 --> 01:02:08,880
cannot really assign a value to pi you

1756
01:02:12,549 --> 01:02:10,079
can have a function that gives you

1757
01:02:15,430 --> 01:02:12,559
digits by digit but you never get to the

1758
01:02:17,589 --> 01:02:15,440
latest last digit it also means that

1759
01:02:19,510 --> 01:02:17,599
digit can uh pi can never be written

1760
01:02:21,190 --> 01:02:19,520
down in such a way that you can have a

1761
01:02:23,589 --> 01:02:21,200
process that relies on knowing all the

1762
01:02:26,950 --> 01:02:23,599
digits of pi and consumes them to tune

1763
01:02:28,150 --> 01:02:26,960
the outcome of some physical process

1764
01:02:30,789 --> 01:02:28,160
right if you

1765
01:02:32,470 --> 01:02:30,799
make the switch to a stateful language

1766
01:02:33,349 --> 01:02:32,480
in which you can only go from step to

1767
01:02:35,510 --> 01:02:33,359
step

1768
01:02:37,510 --> 01:02:35,520
you're losing certain things you're

1769
01:02:39,910 --> 01:02:37,520
losing the ability to treat pi as a

1770
01:02:41,829 --> 01:02:39,920
value pi is now certainly a function

1771
01:02:43,430 --> 01:02:41,839
that you can only approximate to a

1772
01:02:45,589 --> 01:02:43,440
certain degree

1773
01:02:47,190 --> 01:02:45,599
and many other things stop being values

1774
01:02:49,510 --> 01:02:47,200
you'll get a fundamental difference

1775
01:02:50,950 --> 01:02:49,520
between a value of the function a value

1776
01:02:53,109 --> 01:02:50,960
is something that you have already

1777
01:02:54,549 --> 01:02:53,119
computed that you know how to compute by

1778
01:02:56,230 --> 01:02:54,559
extension

1779
01:02:58,470 --> 01:02:56,240
and this means that also that truth

1780
01:03:00,230 --> 01:02:58,480
changes truth is no longer this platonic

1781
01:03:01,990 --> 01:03:00,240
thing that precedes mathematics and

1782
01:03:03,589 --> 01:03:02,000
where we can use mathematics as a tool

1783
01:03:05,829 --> 01:03:03,599
to figure it out

1784
01:03:07,430 --> 01:03:05,839
it has to be contingent on the language

1785
01:03:09,270 --> 01:03:07,440
in which you use it

1786
01:03:10,630 --> 01:03:09,280
if your language has internal

1787
01:03:12,630 --> 01:03:10,640
contradictions

1788
01:03:13,910 --> 01:03:12,640
then truth becomes impossible to

1789
01:03:14,870 --> 01:03:13,920
determine

1790
01:03:16,710 --> 01:03:14,880
right

1791
01:03:18,950 --> 01:03:16,720
you get into areas in this language

1792
01:03:21,109 --> 01:03:18,960
where it falls apart you can no longer

1793
01:03:22,789 --> 01:03:21,119
use it to express coherent thoughts

1794
01:03:24,150 --> 01:03:22,799
about reality and korean models about

1795
01:03:26,710 --> 01:03:24,160
reality

1796
01:03:28,710 --> 01:03:26,720
you can never make statements in the

1797
01:03:30,309 --> 01:03:28,720
language that you can prove outside of

1798
01:03:32,710 --> 01:03:30,319
the language so you cannot use your

1799
01:03:35,109 --> 01:03:32,720
language to prove things that are not

1800
01:03:37,910 --> 01:03:35,119
cannot be described in the language

1801
01:03:39,750 --> 01:03:37,920
your only hope to prove statements about

1802
01:03:41,190 --> 01:03:39,760
the universe that you exist in inner

1803
01:03:43,910 --> 01:03:41,200
language is that you are able to

1804
01:03:46,309 --> 01:03:43,920
recreate the observations that you make

1805
01:03:48,309 --> 01:03:46,319
inside of the language which means you

1806
01:03:49,589 --> 01:03:48,319
recreate a model of the universe that is

1807
01:03:51,829 --> 01:03:49,599
so good

1808
01:03:54,549 --> 01:03:51,839
that it gives you what you observe

1809
01:03:55,750 --> 01:03:54,559
correctly and then you can hope that the

1810
01:03:57,349 --> 01:03:55,760
statements that you make in your

1811
01:03:58,470 --> 01:03:57,359
language capture something about the

1812
01:04:00,230 --> 01:03:58,480
reality

1813
01:04:02,069 --> 01:04:00,240
outside of you that gives rise to your

1814
01:04:04,470 --> 01:04:02,079
observations but of course you cannot

1815
01:04:06,549 --> 01:04:04,480
know because it could also be different

1816
01:04:09,190 --> 01:04:06,559
but if your language is not able to

1817
01:04:11,270 --> 01:04:09,200
produce what's on your screen

1818
01:04:14,549 --> 01:04:11,280
then your language is wrong

1819
01:04:17,670 --> 01:04:14,559
and hilbert basically gave out this task

1820
01:04:20,950 --> 01:04:17,680
to mathematicians to find a machine

1821
01:04:22,950 --> 01:04:20,960
any kind of structural sound language

1822
01:04:24,549 --> 01:04:22,960
that is able to run the semantics of

1823
01:04:26,870 --> 01:04:24,559
mathematics without breaking and what

1824
01:04:28,630 --> 01:04:26,880
goethe discovered is that the semantics

1825
01:04:31,029 --> 01:04:28,640
of stateless mathematics cannot be

1826
01:04:33,670 --> 01:04:31,039
recovered if you assume that there is a

1827
01:04:34,549 --> 01:04:33,680
solution to get stateless mathematics to

1828
01:04:36,710 --> 01:04:34,559
work

1829
01:04:38,950 --> 01:04:36,720
you will run into contradictions

1830
01:04:40,950 --> 01:04:38,960
of the way that google is covered

1831
01:04:42,390 --> 01:04:40,960
but there is a way out

1832
01:04:44,470 --> 01:04:42,400
you just

1833
01:04:46,549 --> 01:04:44,480
drop the notion of truth that is

1834
01:04:48,630 --> 01:04:46,559
independent of the sequence of

1835
01:04:50,230 --> 01:04:48,640
operations the number of the set of

1836
01:04:51,109 --> 01:04:50,240
steps that you took the algorithm that

1837
01:04:53,670 --> 01:04:51,119
you took

1838
01:04:54,870 --> 01:04:53,680
to get to your result

1839
01:04:56,710 --> 01:04:54,880
it means that when you have a

1840
01:04:58,789 --> 01:04:56,720
self-referential statement like this

1841
01:05:00,789 --> 01:04:58,799
sentence is false

1842
01:05:02,710 --> 01:05:00,799
right this is a sentence that of the

1843
01:05:04,549 --> 01:05:02,720
type that god has shown leads and for

1844
01:05:06,710 --> 01:05:04,559
contradictions if you assume that there

1845
01:05:08,549 --> 01:05:06,720
is a stable notion of truth

1846
01:05:10,870 --> 01:05:08,559
that is stateless

1847
01:05:13,430 --> 01:05:10,880
if you accept that truth is not

1848
01:05:15,349 --> 01:05:13,440
necessarily a stable value and you look

1849
01:05:16,470 --> 01:05:15,359
at the sentence then as long as you look

1850
01:05:18,950 --> 01:05:16,480
at it

1851
01:05:20,630 --> 01:05:18,960
the truth value will fluctuate

1852
01:05:22,950 --> 01:05:20,640
because the assumption that the sentence

1853
01:05:25,349 --> 01:05:22,960
is true will lead to the sentence being

1854
01:05:27,190 --> 01:05:25,359
false and vice versa so suddenly you

1855
01:05:29,349 --> 01:05:27,200
have no longer a stable truth predicate

1856
01:05:30,870 --> 01:05:29,359
and it just means that the property of

1857
01:05:32,870 --> 01:05:30,880
the languages in which you can actually

1858
01:05:34,789 --> 01:05:32,880
deal with truth and assign it is that

1859
01:05:37,990 --> 01:05:34,799
under some circumstances the truth

1860
01:05:39,829 --> 01:05:38,000
predicate will not be stable

1861
01:05:41,109 --> 01:05:39,839
and it's fine there's nothing wrong with

1862
01:05:43,190 --> 01:05:41,119
that

1863
01:05:45,510 --> 01:05:43,200
and uh this same thing applies to the

1864
01:05:47,670 --> 01:05:45,520
entities problem that um

1865
01:05:49,589 --> 01:05:47,680
turing was dealing with when it came to

1866
01:05:51,190 --> 01:05:49,599
the halting problem we defined

1867
01:05:52,789 --> 01:05:51,200
originally the turing machine in such a

1868
01:05:54,069 --> 01:05:52,799
way that we could translate stateless

1869
01:05:55,990 --> 01:05:54,079
mathematics

1870
01:05:57,670 --> 01:05:56,000
into algorithms

1871
01:06:00,710 --> 01:05:57,680
and this might require that you have to

1872
01:06:02,470 --> 01:06:00,720
go through an infinite sequence of steps

1873
01:06:04,230 --> 01:06:02,480
and if you make this assumption that you

1874
01:06:05,670 --> 01:06:04,240
sometimes in order to get to truth you

1875
01:06:06,630 --> 01:06:05,680
have to go to an infinite sequence of

1876
01:06:09,589 --> 01:06:06,640
steps

1877
01:06:11,750 --> 01:06:09,599
you run into contradictions

1878
01:06:13,190 --> 01:06:11,760
so you might use an unbounded sequence

1879
01:06:14,789 --> 01:06:13,200
of steps that gives you continuously

1880
01:06:16,630 --> 01:06:14,799
results that's fine

1881
01:06:18,630 --> 01:06:16,640
but you cannot accept that anything

1882
01:06:20,230 --> 01:06:18,640
exists in any kind of universe that has

1883
01:06:21,829 --> 01:06:20,240
caused a structure

1884
01:06:23,990 --> 01:06:21,839
that is going to produce your solution

1885
01:06:25,029 --> 01:06:24,000
to the heartache problem that is which

1886
01:06:26,470 --> 01:06:25,039
would give you back stateless

1887
01:06:28,309 --> 01:06:26,480
mathematics

1888
01:06:29,510 --> 01:06:28,319
so basically what good and turing have

1889
01:06:33,029 --> 01:06:29,520
shown is

1890
01:06:34,710 --> 01:06:33,039
that stateless mathematics doesn't work

1891
01:06:36,390 --> 01:06:34,720
and when we look back at the history of

1892
01:06:37,910 --> 01:06:36,400
mathematics mathematicians have never

1893
01:06:40,230 --> 01:06:37,920
used stateless mathematics they only

1894
01:06:41,670 --> 01:06:40,240
pretended to whenever they actually

1895
01:06:44,630 --> 01:06:41,680
wanted to compute something with

1896
01:06:47,109 --> 01:06:44,640
mathematics they under the hood use

1897
01:06:48,950 --> 01:06:47,119
stateful descriptions they never took in

1898
01:06:50,230 --> 01:06:48,960
infinitely many arguments and performed

1899
01:06:53,029 --> 01:06:50,240
infinitely many

1900
01:06:55,349 --> 01:06:53,039
operations on them and the intuition

1901
01:06:57,270 --> 01:06:55,359
that stateless mathematics makes sense

1902
01:06:59,430 --> 01:06:57,280
is because we had this intuition that

1903
01:07:01,829 --> 01:06:59,440
continuity that space and time in a

1904
01:07:03,270 --> 01:07:01,839
continuous fashion exist

1905
01:07:05,589 --> 01:07:03,280
why do we have this information well

1906
01:07:07,270 --> 01:07:05,599
that's pretty easy to answer right the

1907
01:07:08,630 --> 01:07:07,280
number of things that we interact with

1908
01:07:10,390 --> 01:07:08,640
if we zoom in we find that they are

1909
01:07:13,990 --> 01:07:10,400
discrete although observations have a

1910
01:07:16,069 --> 01:07:14,000
discrete resolution in time and in space

1911
01:07:16,950 --> 01:07:16,079
all our knowledge that we store about

1912
01:07:19,750 --> 01:07:16,960
these

1913
01:07:21,910 --> 01:07:19,760
observables is has a discrete

1914
01:07:22,710 --> 01:07:21,920
number of bits that we can assign to

1915
01:07:24,870 --> 01:07:22,720
them

1916
01:07:26,549 --> 01:07:24,880
there is only finite number of

1917
01:07:28,390 --> 01:07:26,559
information that we can access and that

1918
01:07:30,390 --> 01:07:28,400
we can deal with as an observer that is

1919
01:07:33,029 --> 01:07:30,400
embedded in this universe so everything

1920
01:07:35,510 --> 01:07:33,039
was discrete to begin with but it's too

1921
01:07:40,950 --> 01:07:35,520
many parts to count

1922
01:07:43,990 --> 01:07:40,960
the inside that number of atoms that you

1923
01:07:45,670 --> 01:07:44,000
are in an ocean is a finite bounded

1924
01:07:47,990 --> 01:07:45,680
number it doesn't help you at all

1925
01:07:49,829 --> 01:07:48,000
because it's still almost infinite from

1926
01:07:51,190 --> 01:07:49,839
the perspective of an observer so when

1927
01:07:52,950 --> 01:07:51,200
you want to describe what the ocean is

1928
01:07:55,670 --> 01:07:52,960
doing it doesn't help to count the

1929
01:07:57,990 --> 01:07:55,680
molecules in it and to assign locations

1930
01:08:00,150 --> 01:07:58,000
to them and uh what are the interactions

1931
01:08:01,990 --> 01:08:00,160
doesn't work there is too much

1932
01:08:04,069 --> 01:08:02,000
so when you look at the dynamics too of

1933
01:08:06,150 --> 01:08:04,079
too many parts to count you're looking

1934
01:08:08,710 --> 01:08:06,160
for operations that converge in the

1935
01:08:11,430 --> 01:08:08,720
limit which means they behave quite

1936
01:08:14,870 --> 01:08:11,440
similar whether you're using a trillion

1937
01:08:17,349 --> 01:08:14,880
or 10 trillion or gazillion particles

1938
01:08:19,749 --> 01:08:17,359
right once you have these operators that

1939
01:08:21,430 --> 01:08:19,759
give you the same dynamics under all

1940
01:08:24,149 --> 01:08:21,440
circumstances when you take more and

1941
01:08:25,749 --> 01:08:24,159
more elements to them this this this

1942
01:08:27,510 --> 01:08:25,759
part of mathematics that describes the

1943
01:08:29,430 --> 01:08:27,520
convergent operators

1944
01:08:31,430 --> 01:08:29,440
that's geometry

1945
01:08:33,510 --> 01:08:31,440
and some of geometry is uncomputable so

1946
01:08:35,669 --> 01:08:33,520
you can only approximate it

1947
01:08:37,349 --> 01:08:35,679
but our brain has discovered geometry to

1948
01:08:38,390 --> 01:08:37,359
deal with the world of too many parts to

1949
01:08:40,070 --> 01:08:38,400
count

1950
01:08:41,910 --> 01:08:40,080
and this plays into what you are

1951
01:08:43,910 --> 01:08:41,920
pointing out when you say that

1952
01:08:46,149 --> 01:08:43,920
our perception doesn't give us reality

1953
01:08:46,950 --> 01:08:46,159
it gives us something that we can work

1954
01:08:48,870 --> 01:08:46,960
with

1955
01:08:50,950 --> 01:08:48,880
of course the reality that we are

1956
01:08:52,950 --> 01:08:50,960
embedded in has too many parts to count

1957
01:08:54,470 --> 01:08:52,960
we need a different reality we need one

1958
01:08:55,910 --> 01:08:54,480
that you can actually handle even if

1959
01:08:57,349 --> 01:08:55,920
it's not computable it can only be

1960
01:09:00,229 --> 01:08:57,359
approximated

1961
01:09:02,229 --> 01:09:00,239
and this experimental reality is a very

1962
01:09:04,390 --> 01:09:02,239
coarse simplification it's about as

1963
01:09:06,070 --> 01:09:04,400
coarse as a gaming engine is when you

1964
01:09:07,590 --> 01:09:06,080
play computer game as compared to real

1965
01:09:09,590 --> 01:09:07,600
physics

1966
01:09:11,030 --> 01:09:09,600
it's not much better than that in many

1967
01:09:13,110 --> 01:09:11,040
ways it's even worse which you can

1968
01:09:15,430 --> 01:09:13,120
verify if you put yourself into a lucid

1969
01:09:17,349 --> 01:09:15,440
dream and look at the fidelity of what

1970
01:09:18,950 --> 01:09:17,359
your brain is able to generate light

1971
01:09:20,709 --> 01:09:18,960
switches will usually not work you will

1972
01:09:22,709 --> 01:09:20,719
not be able to read the same stuff twice

1973
01:09:24,709 --> 01:09:22,719
on the same page and you imagine it and

1974
01:09:27,030 --> 01:09:24,719
so on there's only so many bits in your

1975
01:09:29,269 --> 01:09:27,040
working memory the fidelity of what your

1976
01:09:30,470 --> 01:09:29,279
perceptual system can track and imagine

1977
01:09:32,630 --> 01:09:30,480
is limited

1978
01:09:33,829 --> 01:09:32,640
it's relatively easy to overcome that

1979
01:09:35,269 --> 01:09:33,839
don't really know what the number of

1980
01:09:37,669 --> 01:09:35,279
bits in my working memory is and that

1981
01:09:38,390 --> 01:09:37,679
would be very curious to find out

1982
01:09:40,070 --> 01:09:38,400
but

1983
01:09:42,149 --> 01:09:40,080
it's not as big as i thought when i was

1984
01:09:44,309 --> 01:09:42,159
a child it's not infinite it's not

1985
01:09:45,990 --> 01:09:44,319
unlimited perception of infinity is

1986
01:09:49,510 --> 01:09:46,000
super easy to generate when your mind is

1987
01:09:52,470 --> 01:09:49,520
very finite super easy to overwhelm my

1988
01:09:53,349 --> 01:09:52,480
finite resolution mind

1989
01:09:55,350 --> 01:09:53,359
so

1990
01:09:57,189 --> 01:09:55,360
this deep thing that good is

1991
01:09:59,189 --> 01:09:57,199
misunderstood that google has not

1992
01:10:02,709 --> 01:09:59,199
discovered that mathematics cannot reach

1993
01:10:05,030 --> 01:10:02,719
truth but that truth is no more than the

1994
01:10:06,709 --> 01:10:05,040
result of a sequence of steps that is

1995
01:10:09,750 --> 01:10:06,719
compressing a statement to axioms

1996
01:10:11,510 --> 01:10:09,760
losslessly and doesn't go beyond that

1997
01:10:13,350 --> 01:10:11,520
that was the deep insight and it's one

1998
01:10:15,510 --> 01:10:13,360
that basically has not percolated in

1999
01:10:17,350 --> 01:10:15,520
most areas of philosophy and even

2000
01:10:18,470 --> 01:10:17,360
physics yet because the physicists have

2001
01:10:20,790 --> 01:10:18,480
checked out the code base for

2002
01:10:22,870 --> 01:10:20,800
mathematics before that result was

2003
01:10:25,270 --> 01:10:22,880
obtained and understood so basically

2004
01:10:27,350 --> 01:10:25,280
that we need to switch from continuous

2005
01:10:29,590 --> 01:10:27,360
stateless mathematics to constructive

2006
01:10:30,709 --> 01:10:29,600
mathematics that was not understood back

2007
01:10:33,189 --> 01:10:30,719
then

2008
01:10:35,750 --> 01:10:33,199
and it needs to be understood now

2009
01:10:38,790 --> 01:10:35,760
so uh basically my

2010
01:10:40,790 --> 01:10:38,800
uh question to uh somebody like donald

2011
01:10:42,070 --> 01:10:40,800
would not be so much how to explain the

2012
01:10:45,110 --> 01:10:42,080
spectral gap room because i think

2013
01:10:47,669 --> 01:10:45,120
problems of this case of this type are

2014
01:10:49,669 --> 01:10:47,679
with the result of using continuous

2015
01:10:51,189 --> 01:10:49,679
notions of space-time

2016
01:10:53,270 --> 01:10:51,199
and infinities

2017
01:10:54,950 --> 01:10:53,280
and assuming them as given so it's a

2018
01:10:55,669 --> 01:10:54,960
statement about certain theories that

2019
01:10:58,070 --> 01:10:55,679
are

2020
01:11:00,149 --> 01:10:58,080
expressed in the language that has

2021
01:11:01,910 --> 01:11:00,159
inconsistencies in this language with

2022
01:11:03,990 --> 01:11:01,920
these inconsistencies you get to the

2023
01:11:05,590 --> 01:11:04,000
point that you cannot get certain

2024
01:11:07,990 --> 01:11:05,600
results there's also an issue of

2025
01:11:09,750 --> 01:11:08,000
computational irreducibility which is

2026
01:11:12,470 --> 01:11:09,760
difficult to understand in stateless

2027
01:11:14,550 --> 01:11:12,480
mathematics computational irreducibility

2028
01:11:16,550 --> 01:11:14,560
is a property of a system

2029
01:11:18,149 --> 01:11:16,560
that means that you cannot obtain the

2030
01:11:21,189 --> 01:11:18,159
state of the system

2031
01:11:24,229 --> 01:11:21,199
without running the system to that point

2032
01:11:27,030 --> 01:11:24,239
there is no way to predict the system

2033
01:11:28,630 --> 01:11:27,040
except by taking the system with all its

2034
01:11:30,229 --> 01:11:28,640
detail and fidelity

2035
01:11:32,470 --> 01:11:30,239
and going through the sequence of steps

2036
01:11:34,790 --> 01:11:32,480
so you cannot predict what the universe

2037
01:11:36,310 --> 01:11:34,800
is going to do when the universe is

2038
01:11:38,229 --> 01:11:36,320
computationally reusable you're going to

2039
01:11:39,830 --> 01:11:38,239
predict some things but not all of

2040
01:11:41,669 --> 01:11:39,840
things and these some things only with a

2041
01:11:42,630 --> 01:11:41,679
certain degree of certainty because you

2042
01:11:44,870 --> 01:11:42,640
can

2043
01:11:46,550 --> 01:11:44,880
often not insulate them from the parts

2044
01:11:48,950 --> 01:11:46,560
that you cannot predict because they are

2045
01:11:52,149 --> 01:11:48,960
computationally irreducible

2046
01:11:54,390 --> 01:11:52,159
in a universe that is played out and

2047
01:11:56,229 --> 01:11:54,400
implemented in a stateless language that

2048
01:11:58,229 --> 01:11:56,239
is a confusing property

2049
01:11:59,830 --> 01:11:58,239
because the cost of computation doesn't

2050
01:12:02,390 --> 01:11:59,840
play a role when you are in a stateless

2051
01:12:03,830 --> 01:12:02,400
universe in a stateful universe the

2052
01:12:06,070 --> 01:12:03,840
number of state transitions that your

2053
01:12:07,910 --> 01:12:06,080
model needs to make plays a suddenly a

2054
01:12:09,030 --> 01:12:07,920
certain role and

2055
01:12:11,590 --> 01:12:09,040
this

2056
01:12:13,590 --> 01:12:11,600
specter of computational irreducibly uh

2057
01:12:15,830 --> 01:12:13,600
dooms large it means that you cannot

2058
01:12:16,870 --> 01:12:15,840
compute things for practical reasons

2059
01:12:18,310 --> 01:12:16,880
because you don't have enough

2060
01:12:20,790 --> 01:12:18,320
information yet and you cannot have

2061
01:12:23,270 --> 01:12:20,800
information to make that prediction but

2062
01:12:25,350 --> 01:12:23,280
there is no deep miracle uh that is not

2063
01:12:27,910 --> 01:12:25,360
caused by the language when you discover

2064
01:12:30,229 --> 01:12:27,920
that the spectral gap problem is uh

2065
01:12:32,149 --> 01:12:30,239
incomputable so my question to donald

2066
01:12:34,070 --> 01:12:32,159
would be if you think that there is a

2067
01:12:35,350 --> 01:12:34,080
limit to computation that you can see

2068
01:12:36,870 --> 01:12:35,360
and previously

2069
01:12:39,110 --> 01:12:36,880
you would still do something and make

2070
01:12:40,870 --> 01:12:39,120
statements what is it that you use to

2071
01:12:42,149 --> 01:12:40,880
make statements beyond the limits of

2072
01:12:44,709 --> 01:12:42,159
computation

2073
01:12:46,790 --> 01:12:44,719
what parts of uh of your mind are you

2074
01:12:48,630 --> 01:12:46,800
drawing from when you make statements

2075
01:12:51,750 --> 01:12:48,640
beyond what a computational system can

2076
01:12:55,189 --> 01:12:53,270
right so

2077
01:12:57,270 --> 01:12:55,199
so well one way of

2078
01:12:59,270 --> 01:12:57,280
trying to focus this would be to

2079
01:13:00,229 --> 01:12:59,280
talk about the integers versus the real

2080
01:13:03,270 --> 01:13:00,239
numbers

2081
01:13:08,550 --> 01:13:03,280
so

2082
01:13:12,149 --> 01:13:10,470
do you think that

2083
01:13:13,990 --> 01:13:12,159
so so for example if we

2084
01:13:16,950 --> 01:13:14,000
look at just the set of all functions

2085
01:13:18,790 --> 01:13:16,960
from the integers to the integers right

2086
01:13:22,229 --> 01:13:18,800
it's trivial to show that that's not

2087
01:13:25,350 --> 01:13:23,830
so

2088
01:13:27,030 --> 01:13:25,360
yeah touring showed that the set of

2089
01:13:29,270 --> 01:13:27,040
computable functions is countable the

2090
01:13:31,030 --> 01:13:29,280
set of turing machines is countable

2091
01:13:35,030 --> 01:13:31,040
so

2092
01:13:36,950 --> 01:13:35,040
things very very concrete

2093
01:13:39,270 --> 01:13:36,960
the the set of all functions from the

2094
01:13:41,350 --> 01:13:39,280
integers to the integers isn't countable

2095
01:13:43,669 --> 01:13:41,360
the turing computable functions are

2096
01:13:45,350 --> 01:13:43,679
countable and so there's a sense in

2097
01:13:46,709 --> 01:13:45,360
which the turing computable functions

2098
01:13:48,709 --> 01:13:46,719
have measure zero

2099
01:13:51,030 --> 01:13:48,719
they have their probability zero on the

2100
01:13:53,990 --> 01:13:51,040
set of all of all functions

2101
01:13:55,669 --> 01:13:54,000
so do we want to conclude

2102
01:13:57,350 --> 01:13:55,679
from from this computationalist point of

2103
01:13:58,950 --> 01:13:57,360
view that

2104
01:14:01,590 --> 01:13:58,960
that all those other functions don't

2105
01:14:03,110 --> 01:14:01,600
exist with that that we're sort of

2106
01:14:06,390 --> 01:14:03,120
when i so you you're saying those

2107
01:14:07,590 --> 01:14:06,400
functions so so real numbers don't exist

2108
01:14:09,590 --> 01:14:07,600
real numbers

2109
01:14:11,110 --> 01:14:09,600
yes for something to exist it has to uh

2110
01:14:12,709 --> 01:14:11,120
be implemented

2111
01:14:14,149 --> 01:14:12,719
if it's something it's not implemented

2112
01:14:15,990 --> 01:14:14,159
anywhere it doesn't make sense to claim

2113
01:14:18,070 --> 01:14:16,000
that it exists i think it's a confusion

2114
01:14:19,830 --> 01:14:18,080
of the notion of existence to say that

2115
01:14:22,550 --> 01:14:19,840
something that is not implemented and is

2116
01:14:24,470 --> 01:14:22,560
not implementable could exist

2117
01:14:26,630 --> 01:14:24,480
the things that produce patterns that we

2118
01:14:28,550 --> 01:14:26,640
observe in order to exist and need to be

2119
01:14:30,550 --> 01:14:28,560
implemented right

2120
01:14:32,149 --> 01:14:30,560
so uh you could say does the financial

2121
01:14:34,149 --> 01:14:32,159
system exist well it exists to the

2122
01:14:35,990 --> 01:14:34,159
degree that it's implemented there are

2123
01:14:37,270 --> 01:14:36,000
some boundaries very projected and it's

2124
01:14:39,430 --> 01:14:37,280
not actually implemented where it

2125
01:14:41,669 --> 01:14:39,440
doesn't actually exist only in some

2126
01:14:43,669 --> 01:14:41,679
course approximation but by and large

2127
01:14:46,630 --> 01:14:43,679
something exists right some causal

2128
01:14:48,310 --> 01:14:46,640
structure is implemented here the set of

2129
01:14:50,229 --> 01:14:48,320
all the functions between the integers

2130
01:14:51,510 --> 01:14:50,239
is not implementable therefore it

2131
01:14:53,990 --> 01:14:51,520
doesn't exist

2132
01:14:56,310 --> 01:14:54,000
it's something that you can specify and

2133
01:14:58,470 --> 01:14:56,320
this difference between specification

2134
01:15:00,709 --> 01:14:58,480
and existence is something that is very

2135
01:15:02,310 --> 01:15:00,719
obvious to a computer scientist

2136
01:15:03,990 --> 01:15:02,320
and sometimes not obvious to a

2137
01:15:05,830 --> 01:15:04,000
traditional mathematician

2138
01:15:08,630 --> 01:15:05,840
there is stuff that you can specify that

2139
01:15:09,990 --> 01:15:08,640
makes no sense it is only specifiable in

2140
01:15:13,030 --> 01:15:10,000
your language but that's because your

2141
01:15:14,950 --> 01:15:13,040
language is much more permissible than

2142
01:15:17,110 --> 01:15:14,960
the set of things that can be uh can

2143
01:15:19,910 --> 01:15:17,120
exist and computation is less

2144
01:15:22,229 --> 01:15:19,920
permissible computation only permits you

2145
01:15:23,830 --> 01:15:22,239
to build things that can actually exist

2146
01:15:25,510 --> 01:15:23,840
if you can build things that cannot

2147
01:15:26,630 --> 01:15:25,520
exist it's a problem of your language in

2148
01:15:29,669 --> 01:15:26,640
which you're building things it's not a

2149
01:15:31,750 --> 01:15:29,679
problem of reality just confused

2150
01:15:34,390 --> 01:15:31,760
i have a comment this one's from

2151
01:15:36,790 --> 01:15:34,400
professor edward lee of berkeley and it

2152
01:15:38,390 --> 01:15:36,800
may provide some insight and you both

2153
01:15:39,990 --> 01:15:38,400
can tell us your thoughts on this so

2154
01:15:41,990 --> 01:15:40,000
this is from professor edward lee of

2155
01:15:43,750 --> 01:15:42,000
berkeley this question is a major theme

2156
01:15:46,310 --> 01:15:43,760
in the second half of my book plato and

2157
01:15:47,910 --> 01:15:46,320
the nerd utms so universal turing

2158
01:15:49,830 --> 01:15:47,920
machines have the following properties

2159
01:15:51,830 --> 01:15:49,840
number one their operation is a sequence

2160
01:15:53,350 --> 01:15:51,840
of discrete steps number two the data

2161
01:15:55,910 --> 01:15:53,360
comes from a countable set number three

2162
01:15:58,070 --> 01:15:55,920
that sequence terminates it is a huge

2163
01:16:01,030 --> 01:15:58,080
leap of faith to assume that physical

2164
01:16:03,669 --> 01:16:01,040
processes have any of these constraints

2165
01:16:06,070 --> 01:16:03,679
i show in plato and the nerd that the

2166
01:16:07,510 --> 01:16:06,080
hypothesis that physical processes all

2167
01:16:11,030 --> 01:16:07,520
have these properties is actually

2168
01:16:12,149 --> 01:16:11,040
untestable i remember earlier yosha you

2169
01:16:14,149 --> 01:16:12,159
mentioned that

2170
01:16:15,270 --> 01:16:14,159
if it's untestable and you can't provide

2171
01:16:16,470 --> 01:16:15,280
evidence for it then perhaps it

2172
01:16:18,310 --> 01:16:16,480
shouldn't be talked about so this

2173
01:16:19,830 --> 01:16:18,320
reminded me of this and he says in

2174
01:16:21,910 --> 01:16:19,840
brackets this follows from an

2175
01:16:23,750 --> 01:16:21,920
information theorem due to clochen and

2176
01:16:25,990 --> 01:16:23,760
known as the channel capacity theorem

2177
01:16:28,229 --> 01:16:26,000
the converse hypothesis that the

2178
01:16:31,030 --> 01:16:28,239
physical world is not so constrained is

2179
01:16:33,350 --> 01:16:31,040
also untestable by experiment but i

2180
01:16:35,430 --> 01:16:33,360
argue in plato and the nerd that the

2181
01:16:37,350 --> 01:16:35,440
converse hypothesis leads to simpler

2182
01:16:39,270 --> 01:16:37,360
models of the universe and therefore is

2183
01:16:41,030 --> 01:16:39,280
a better choice by outcomes razor my

2184
01:16:42,870 --> 01:16:41,040
claim is that universal turing machines

2185
01:16:45,030 --> 01:16:42,880
is realized on today's computers are

2186
01:16:47,189 --> 01:16:45,040
simulations quote-unquote of a process

2187
01:16:48,870 --> 01:16:47,199
that is fundamentally non-algorithmic so

2188
01:16:50,310 --> 01:16:48,880
i just want to place that out there and

2189
01:16:54,149 --> 01:16:50,320
perhaps you can use that as a jumping

2190
01:16:55,669 --> 01:16:54,159
off board donald and then yosha

2191
01:16:57,110 --> 01:16:55,679
very interesting i'll want to to read

2192
01:16:59,590 --> 01:16:57,120
that book and make sure i understand

2193
01:17:01,590 --> 01:16:59,600
what uh professor lee is saying that's

2194
01:17:02,550 --> 01:17:01,600
quite interesting so plato and the nerd

2195
01:17:04,070 --> 01:17:02,560
um

2196
01:17:06,390 --> 01:17:04,080
i'll be interviewing edward at some

2197
01:17:08,390 --> 01:17:06,400
point in the next few weeks as well

2198
01:17:09,830 --> 01:17:08,400
oh oh very good yeah that's that's

2199
01:17:10,870 --> 01:17:09,840
that's really quick because these are

2200
01:17:13,030 --> 01:17:10,880
very very

2201
01:17:14,709 --> 01:17:13,040
deep issues it seems to me that this

2202
01:17:16,390 --> 01:17:14,719
also interacts with what the physicists

2203
01:17:18,870 --> 01:17:16,400
are telling us that there is

2204
01:17:22,870 --> 01:17:18,880
no time fundamentally

2205
01:17:25,750 --> 01:17:22,880
so so if if time is not fundamental then

2206
01:17:27,990 --> 01:17:25,760
these computational issues where there

2207
01:17:32,950 --> 01:17:29,669
fundamental limits to what can be

2208
01:17:37,030 --> 01:17:32,960
computed because we're assuming time

2209
01:17:39,189 --> 01:17:37,040
a sequence of so in in computer

2210
01:17:41,990 --> 01:17:39,199
simulations computer algorithms

2211
01:17:44,149 --> 01:17:42,000
we're assuming

2212
01:17:45,910 --> 01:17:44,159
a sequence in time of computations that

2213
01:17:47,830 --> 01:17:45,920
can be and the kinds of limits that

2214
01:17:50,550 --> 01:17:47,840
yoshi's talking about

2215
01:17:52,950 --> 01:17:50,560
seems to me um

2216
01:17:55,430 --> 01:17:52,960
are a consequence of assuming time to be

2217
01:17:57,830 --> 01:17:55,440
fundamental and if we have to go to a

2218
01:18:00,310 --> 01:17:57,840
physics in which time is not fundamental

2219
01:18:01,590 --> 01:18:00,320
then that that places this whole our

2220
01:18:03,030 --> 01:18:01,600
whole conversation in a completely

2221
01:18:06,070 --> 01:18:03,040
different context

2222
01:18:09,669 --> 01:18:08,470
what we may be pointing to is

2223
01:18:12,310 --> 01:18:09,679
time has

2224
01:18:14,709 --> 01:18:12,320
been a very useful and helpful thing for

2225
01:18:16,390 --> 01:18:14,719
physics for several centuries and and

2226
01:18:17,590 --> 01:18:16,400
now the hard work that we have to do is

2227
01:18:19,270 --> 01:18:17,600
to understand

2228
01:18:21,110 --> 01:18:19,280
how to go beyond the notion of time and

2229
01:18:22,790 --> 01:18:21,120
when we go beyond the notion of time

2230
01:18:23,750 --> 01:18:22,800
well the kind of the discussion we're

2231
01:18:27,030 --> 01:18:23,760
having

2232
01:18:28,070 --> 01:18:27,040
right now we fundamentally revised um

2233
01:18:30,470 --> 01:18:28,080
the computational versus

2234
01:18:31,350 --> 01:18:30,480
non-computational notions we may have to

2235
01:18:34,070 --> 01:18:31,360
really

2236
01:18:35,750 --> 01:18:34,080
revise how our whole conversation here

2237
01:18:39,189 --> 01:18:35,760
is going i'd be very interested what

2238
01:18:43,990 --> 01:18:43,030
thank you also thanks edward lee for

2239
01:18:45,189 --> 01:18:44,000
your

2240
01:18:45,990 --> 01:18:45,199
argument

2241
01:19:07,510 --> 01:18:46,000
i

2242
01:19:09,669 --> 01:19:07,520
steps

2243
01:19:12,310 --> 01:19:09,679
may be a mistake in the sense in which

2244
01:19:15,510 --> 01:19:12,320
two machines were originally defined

2245
01:19:17,510 --> 01:19:15,520
so basically a computer that can be

2246
01:19:18,630 --> 01:19:17,520
built is not a turing machine in this

2247
01:19:21,510 --> 01:19:18,640
sense but

2248
01:19:24,470 --> 01:19:21,520
it's always a finite state machine

2249
01:19:27,669 --> 01:19:24,480
and in a finite state machine you can

2250
01:19:29,750 --> 01:19:27,679
have a number of steps uh sequence of

2251
01:19:31,590 --> 01:19:29,760
steps that is unbounded that doesn't

2252
01:19:33,910 --> 01:19:31,600
stop and that gives you more and more

2253
01:19:36,630 --> 01:19:33,920
digits of pi while you're looking at in

2254
01:19:38,470 --> 01:19:36,640
a sense it doesn't come to a conclusion

2255
01:19:40,630 --> 01:19:38,480
if you want to compute physics but it's

2256
01:19:42,470 --> 01:19:40,640
not the problem to build a computer that

2257
01:19:43,830 --> 01:19:42,480
as long as it runs gives you more digits

2258
01:19:45,910 --> 01:19:43,840
of pi

2259
01:19:47,669 --> 01:19:45,920
and so i think from a formal perspective

2260
01:19:49,669 --> 01:19:47,679
or from an uh it doesn't make much of a

2261
01:19:51,189 --> 01:19:49,679
difference because you can easily fix it

2262
01:19:52,870 --> 01:19:51,199
but it's important

2263
01:19:54,390 --> 01:19:52,880
if you think about your intuitions about

2264
01:19:57,830 --> 01:19:54,400
how things work or the proofs that you

2265
01:19:59,990 --> 01:19:57,840
make in other contexts that the value of

2266
01:20:02,229 --> 01:20:00,000
computation doesn't hinge on there being

2267
01:20:04,229 --> 01:20:02,239
a finite number of steps until a

2268
01:20:05,750 --> 01:20:04,239
computation that is going to give you a

2269
01:20:09,110 --> 01:20:05,760
result that was formulated classical

2270
01:20:10,950 --> 01:20:09,120
mathematics terminates but that it means

2271
01:20:14,470 --> 01:20:10,960
that everything that you get is the

2272
01:20:16,629 --> 01:20:14,480
result of finite interactions

2273
01:20:18,870 --> 01:20:16,639
and if you assume that infinite

2274
01:20:20,629 --> 01:20:18,880
interactions are possible you run into

2275
01:20:22,470 --> 01:20:20,639
the difficulties that girdle and turing

2276
01:20:24,390 --> 01:20:22,480
has have discovered which means that

2277
01:20:25,910 --> 01:20:24,400
your theories no longer work they no

2278
01:20:29,350 --> 01:20:25,920
longer make sense

2279
01:20:30,950 --> 01:20:29,360
and uh different from edward and maybe

2280
01:20:32,870 --> 01:20:30,960
doing him in justice here i haven't read

2281
01:20:33,910 --> 01:20:32,880
this book um

2282
01:20:36,550 --> 01:20:33,920
so

2283
01:20:38,229 --> 01:20:36,560
i would say that it's much more elegant

2284
01:20:39,669 --> 01:20:38,239
from the perspective how comes razer to

2285
01:20:41,270 --> 01:20:39,679
describe reality in a language that

2286
01:20:43,030 --> 01:20:41,280
doesn't break

2287
01:20:45,189 --> 01:20:43,040
because if your language breaks and you

2288
01:20:46,470 --> 01:20:45,199
still try to make a

2289
01:20:48,870 --> 01:20:46,480
model of reality it's going to be

2290
01:20:51,030 --> 01:20:48,880
arbitrarily expensive it doesn't work

2291
01:20:53,270 --> 01:20:51,040
you have to find a language that works

2292
01:20:55,590 --> 01:20:53,280
so if we find that the languages in

2293
01:20:57,510 --> 01:20:55,600
which we can describe reality have to be

2294
01:20:59,910 --> 01:20:57,520
computational languages because the

2295
01:21:01,590 --> 01:20:59,920
others lead into contradictions then we

2296
01:21:03,189 --> 01:21:01,600
have to use the computational languages

2297
01:21:05,830 --> 01:21:03,199
that's the situation that i find myself

2298
01:21:07,510 --> 01:21:05,840
to be in this doesn't mean that i can

2299
01:21:09,110 --> 01:21:07,520
know what physics is like it just means

2300
01:21:11,270 --> 01:21:09,120
that all the physics that i can talk

2301
01:21:14,390 --> 01:21:11,280
about without my language breaking

2302
01:21:17,030 --> 01:21:14,400
has to play out in this way

2303
01:21:19,830 --> 01:21:17,040
and the notion of what is time so coming

2304
01:21:22,070 --> 01:21:19,840
back to donald is uh is very important

2305
01:21:24,709 --> 01:21:22,080
that there are two notions of time one

2306
01:21:27,189 --> 01:21:24,719
is this intuitive notion that we have as

2307
01:21:29,669 --> 01:21:27,199
human beings which is

2308
01:21:31,189 --> 01:21:29,679
basically this newtonian time this uh

2309
01:21:32,790 --> 01:21:31,199
time which uh

2310
01:21:34,629 --> 01:21:32,800
where clocks run the same speed

2311
01:21:36,709 --> 01:21:34,639
everywhere and so on and that describes

2312
01:21:39,990 --> 01:21:36,719
the transition of the universe from the

2313
01:21:40,790 --> 01:21:40,000
past into the future via the present

2314
01:21:42,950 --> 01:21:40,800
and

2315
01:21:44,950 --> 01:21:42,960
this notion of time is somewhat similar

2316
01:21:47,030 --> 01:21:44,960
to the notion of the straight state

2317
01:21:48,470 --> 01:21:47,040
transition in your computer

2318
01:21:50,229 --> 01:21:48,480
except that the state transition in a

2319
01:21:51,910 --> 01:21:50,239
computer has some kind of global clock

2320
01:21:54,550 --> 01:21:51,920
where everything in the computer goes

2321
01:21:56,629 --> 01:21:54,560
from state to state all at once and goes

2322
01:21:58,390 --> 01:21:56,639
progresses to the next step but what we

2323
01:22:01,189 --> 01:21:58,400
see in our universe that it only makes

2324
01:22:02,629 --> 01:22:01,199
sense if we assume that it's dynamic

2325
01:22:04,709 --> 01:22:02,639
if the universe would just be a

2326
01:22:06,709 --> 01:22:04,719
decoupled sequence of states without a

2327
01:22:08,470 --> 01:22:06,719
transition function there would not be

2328
01:22:10,790 --> 01:22:08,480
any law that we can discover there is

2329
01:22:12,390 --> 01:22:10,800
nothing that we can control organisms

2330
01:22:14,229 --> 01:22:12,400
would not exist in the way in which they

2331
01:22:16,229 --> 01:22:14,239
do so the

2332
01:22:17,830 --> 01:22:16,239
from the observations that we make we

2333
01:22:19,830 --> 01:22:17,840
have to assume that the transitions in

2334
01:22:21,990 --> 01:22:19,840
the universe are somehow fundamental

2335
01:22:24,470 --> 01:22:22,000
that the universe is moving

2336
01:22:25,990 --> 01:22:24,480
and state transitions seem to be crucial

2337
01:22:28,070 --> 01:22:26,000
in order to be able to understand the

2338
01:22:29,830 --> 01:22:28,080
universe that there is some notion of

2339
01:22:32,550 --> 01:22:29,840
transition and this notion of transition

2340
01:22:33,350 --> 01:22:32,560
is much more basic than time

2341
01:22:35,270 --> 01:22:33,360
and

2342
01:22:37,110 --> 01:22:35,280
the time that we are talking about when

2343
01:22:38,950 --> 01:22:37,120
we see that time is not fundamental in

2344
01:22:39,750 --> 01:22:38,960
the notion of space-time is relativistic

2345
01:22:43,750 --> 01:22:39,760
time

2346
01:22:45,510 --> 01:22:43,760
universe looks like to a relativistic

2347
01:22:47,590 --> 01:22:45,520
observer

2348
01:22:49,910 --> 01:22:47,600
and we can obtain relativistic time if

2349
01:22:52,390 --> 01:22:49,920
we understand that

2350
01:22:53,990 --> 01:22:52,400
what we perceive as time is basically

2351
01:22:55,990 --> 01:22:54,000
the speed of the clocks in our

2352
01:22:57,430 --> 01:22:56,000
environment

2353
01:23:00,390 --> 01:22:57,440
and the speed of the clocks that we

2354
01:23:02,470 --> 01:23:00,400
observe depend on our own speed

2355
01:23:05,030 --> 01:23:02,480
so if i move you through the universe

2356
01:23:06,870 --> 01:23:05,040
and you are a supervision pattern on the

2357
01:23:09,910 --> 01:23:06,880
structure of the universe imagine the

2358
01:23:12,790 --> 01:23:09,920
universe is something like an ocean

2359
01:23:15,590 --> 01:23:12,800
and the present is the crest of a

2360
01:23:16,470 --> 01:23:15,600
traveling wave through that ocean

2361
01:23:17,669 --> 01:23:16,480
and

2362
01:23:19,910 --> 01:23:17,679
there are

2363
01:23:21,510 --> 01:23:19,920
waves maybe in front and behind us but

2364
01:23:23,910 --> 01:23:21,520
they're not our future the past they're

2365
01:23:26,310 --> 01:23:23,920
different universes that just happen to

2366
01:23:28,229 --> 01:23:26,320
be a little more along a bit less along

2367
01:23:29,669 --> 01:23:28,239
the future and past would require you to

2368
01:23:30,950 --> 01:23:29,679
leave the crest of the wave and you

2369
01:23:32,629 --> 01:23:30,960
can't because you're always traveling

2370
01:23:35,189 --> 01:23:32,639
with the wave

2371
01:23:36,950 --> 01:23:35,199
so there is no way to leave that present

2372
01:23:39,189 --> 01:23:36,960
because only the present exists from the

2373
01:23:41,510 --> 01:23:39,199
perspective of that crest and you or me

2374
01:23:44,390 --> 01:23:41,520
we are vortices and scraped

2375
01:23:45,910 --> 01:23:44,400
on the crest of that traveling wave

2376
01:23:47,669 --> 01:23:45,920
and the

2377
01:23:49,590 --> 01:23:47,679
rotation that the vortex is doing when

2378
01:23:51,430 --> 01:23:49,600
it updates itself to observe the

2379
01:23:53,590 --> 01:23:51,440
universe to form a memory and so on and

2380
01:23:55,270 --> 01:23:53,600
to register its perceptions and so on

2381
01:23:57,189 --> 01:23:55,280
will depend on the speed in which this

2382
01:23:58,229 --> 01:23:57,199
vortex rotates

2383
01:24:00,950 --> 01:23:58,239
right

2384
01:24:03,030 --> 01:24:00,960
and so if the vortex is moving along

2385
01:24:05,430 --> 01:24:03,040
with the wave then the updates in the

2386
01:24:07,590 --> 01:24:05,440
vortex are a function of the movement in

2387
01:24:09,990 --> 01:24:07,600
the wave itself the basic parasitize on

2388
01:24:12,470 --> 01:24:10,000
the movement of the main wave

2389
01:24:14,149 --> 01:24:12,480
and you can not as this vortex traveling

2390
01:24:15,910 --> 01:24:14,159
with the wave ever leave the wave you

2391
01:24:18,390 --> 01:24:15,920
can move a little bit in this in the

2392
01:24:20,550 --> 01:24:18,400
wave to the left or to the right

2393
01:24:22,390 --> 01:24:20,560
that is moving to the left or the right

2394
01:24:25,189 --> 01:24:22,400
would be movement in space you cannot

2395
01:24:27,110 --> 01:24:25,199
move in time you just move this the time

2396
01:24:29,430 --> 01:24:27,120
right and the faster you move to the

2397
01:24:31,510 --> 01:24:29,440
left or to the right the less there will

2398
01:24:33,830 --> 01:24:31,520
be updates available for in turning your

2399
01:24:35,510 --> 01:24:33,840
internal state

2400
01:24:36,390 --> 01:24:35,520
so the fluctuations of the vortex

2401
01:24:38,870 --> 01:24:36,400
becomes

2402
01:24:40,550 --> 01:24:38,880
slower and slower the more the vortex

2403
01:24:42,470 --> 01:24:40,560
moves in space and this leads to

2404
01:24:43,669 --> 01:24:42,480
relativistic time it means that from the

2405
01:24:45,350 --> 01:24:43,679
perspective

2406
01:24:46,629 --> 01:24:45,360
of the vortex when it looks at its

2407
01:24:49,110 --> 01:24:46,639
environment the environment gets

2408
01:24:50,870 --> 01:24:49,120
distorted in time and space

2409
01:24:52,709 --> 01:24:50,880
so in this notion we realize why

2410
01:24:54,229 --> 01:24:52,719
something would look like to a vertex

2411
01:24:56,149 --> 01:24:54,239
that moves like this

2412
01:24:58,470 --> 01:24:56,159
like relativistic time and we understand

2413
01:25:00,390 --> 01:24:58,480
that the relativistic time from the

2414
01:25:02,070 --> 01:25:00,400
fundamental perspective how to make all

2415
01:25:04,070 --> 01:25:02,080
this happening how to build a system

2416
01:25:05,350 --> 01:25:04,080
that functions like this cannot be

2417
01:25:08,149 --> 01:25:05,360
fundamental

2418
01:25:09,830 --> 01:25:08,159
it's a result to the observer it will be

2419
01:25:11,830 --> 01:25:09,840
what the universe looks like to the

2420
01:25:13,350 --> 01:25:11,840
observer of the observer screens as we

2421
01:25:15,350 --> 01:25:13,360
always do

2422
01:25:17,750 --> 01:25:15,360
right but it is not fundamental but

2423
01:25:19,750 --> 01:25:17,760
fundamental are the state transitions

2424
01:25:22,229 --> 01:25:19,760
so what we need to do is basically

2425
01:25:24,470 --> 01:25:22,239
replace the physical this time that is

2426
01:25:25,990 --> 01:25:24,480
relativistic for good reason in the

2427
01:25:28,390 --> 01:25:26,000
frame of certain models by something

2428
01:25:30,470 --> 01:25:28,400
that is more fundamental and allows us

2429
01:25:33,750 --> 01:25:30,480
to derive the relativistic time and this

2430
01:25:38,149 --> 01:25:36,229
very very interesting there's some

2431
01:25:39,510 --> 01:25:38,159
in that spirit um or at least in that

2432
01:25:42,310 --> 01:25:39,520
kind of direction there's

2433
01:25:44,149 --> 01:25:42,320
work by marcus mueller and and philip

2434
01:25:46,950 --> 01:25:44,159
hone

2435
01:25:49,110 --> 01:25:46,960
and and then also some some more recent

2436
01:25:51,830 --> 01:25:49,120
work um

2437
01:25:53,030 --> 01:25:51,840
by fabio mercadi and um

2438
01:25:54,790 --> 01:25:53,040
and giovanni

2439
01:25:56,310 --> 01:25:54,800
emelina camilla

2440
01:25:59,110 --> 01:25:56,320
where where they're

2441
01:26:00,550 --> 01:25:59,120
showing how relativistic space times can

2442
01:26:02,310 --> 01:26:00,560
be

2443
01:26:04,550 --> 01:26:02,320
constructed

2444
01:26:06,390 --> 01:26:04,560
from exchange of quantum information so

2445
01:26:08,709 --> 01:26:06,400
you don't assume it up front but you try

2446
01:26:10,310 --> 01:26:08,719
to get a dictionary

2447
01:26:12,470 --> 01:26:10,320
to that allows

2448
01:26:14,870 --> 01:26:12,480
different uh

2449
01:26:17,030 --> 01:26:14,880
quantum

2450
01:26:19,110 --> 01:26:17,040
agents to send information back and

2451
01:26:21,030 --> 01:26:19,120
forth and it turns out if you send

2452
01:26:22,390 --> 01:26:21,040
enough information back and forth

2453
01:26:24,229 --> 01:26:22,400
and try to set up a dictionary to make

2454
01:26:25,510 --> 01:26:24,239
everything consistent you will get

2455
01:26:27,910 --> 01:26:25,520
einstein's

2456
01:26:29,669 --> 01:26:27,920
special relativistic um space time

2457
01:26:30,550 --> 01:26:29,679
coming out of it so that's that that's

2458
01:26:32,470 --> 01:26:30,560
that's

2459
01:26:33,510 --> 01:26:32,480
an interesting direction

2460
01:26:35,669 --> 01:26:33,520
to go

2461
01:26:37,430 --> 01:26:35,679
um another

2462
01:26:40,870 --> 01:26:37,440
interesting direction

2463
01:26:43,270 --> 01:26:40,880
to think about one just a simple notion

2464
01:26:48,070 --> 01:26:43,280
time and entropy are

2465
01:26:50,629 --> 01:26:48,080
are deeply connected

2466
01:26:53,990 --> 01:26:50,639
and so we would like to have some way of

2467
01:26:56,149 --> 01:26:54,000
getting entropic time coming out of

2468
01:26:58,149 --> 01:26:56,159
a deeper system in which there is no

2469
01:26:59,830 --> 01:26:58,159
entropic time right

2470
01:27:01,750 --> 01:26:59,840
and there is a

2471
01:27:03,510 --> 01:27:01,760
i'm not saying this is the deepest way

2472
01:27:05,510 --> 01:27:03,520
of doing it but an interesting simple

2473
01:27:07,669 --> 01:27:05,520
way just in the case of markovian

2474
01:27:09,669 --> 01:27:07,679
dynamics so if i have a

2475
01:27:10,550 --> 01:27:09,679
a markovian system

2476
01:27:12,950 --> 01:27:10,560
um

2477
01:27:15,110 --> 01:27:12,960
homogeneous

2478
01:27:17,430 --> 01:27:15,120
and it's in a stationary

2479
01:27:19,270 --> 01:27:17,440
then the entropy of that system doesn't

2480
01:27:23,270 --> 01:27:19,280
change so

2481
01:27:27,030 --> 01:27:23,280
if if for state x sub n and x n minus 1

2482
01:27:30,550 --> 01:27:27,040
and so forth the entropy h of x of n

2483
01:27:35,189 --> 01:27:30,560
equals h of x sub n minus 1 for all n

2484
01:27:36,310 --> 01:27:35,199
so you so there is no entropic time

2485
01:27:38,149 --> 01:27:36,320
but

2486
01:27:39,590 --> 01:27:38,159
it's trivial to prove

2487
01:27:41,830 --> 01:27:39,600
that if you just do a simple

2488
01:27:43,990 --> 01:27:41,840
conditioning if i if i look at

2489
01:27:46,709 --> 01:27:44,000
xn given x1

2490
01:27:47,590 --> 01:27:46,719
or x yeah x n given but then it turns

2491
01:27:48,470 --> 01:27:47,600
out

2492
01:27:49,910 --> 01:27:48,480
that

2493
01:27:52,390 --> 01:27:49,920
h of x n

2494
01:27:55,350 --> 01:27:52,400
given x one is greater than or equal to

2495
01:27:56,870 --> 01:27:55,360
h of x n given x n minus one

2496
01:27:59,510 --> 01:27:56,880
in other words

2497
01:28:01,990 --> 01:27:59,520
the very fact of and

2498
01:28:03,750 --> 01:28:02,000
doing conditioning which is projection

2499
01:28:05,590 --> 01:28:03,760
so you can think about

2500
01:28:07,350 --> 01:28:05,600
i take this

2501
01:28:08,950 --> 01:28:07,360
dynamical system

2502
01:28:11,270 --> 01:28:08,960
which has a notion of state transition

2503
01:28:13,189 --> 01:28:11,280
it's a markov chain

2504
01:28:15,350 --> 01:28:13,199
but it doesn't have any entropic time

2505
01:28:17,270 --> 01:28:15,360
but as soon as you start projecting that

2506
01:28:19,270 --> 01:28:17,280
that non-entropic system onto different

2507
01:28:21,350 --> 01:28:19,280
perspectives by

2508
01:28:24,470 --> 01:28:21,360
by conditioning like h of x n given x

2509
01:28:26,070 --> 01:28:24,480
one all of a sudden now you have entropy

2510
01:28:28,070 --> 01:28:26,080
and so now you have that kind of notion

2511
01:28:29,270 --> 01:28:28,080
of time so so is that a direction that

2512
01:28:32,390 --> 01:28:29,280
we could go

2513
01:28:33,910 --> 01:28:32,400
where where we could still have

2514
01:28:36,709 --> 01:28:33,920
in some sense a dynamical system but

2515
01:28:40,310 --> 01:28:36,719
it's not an entropic time system

2516
01:28:42,550 --> 01:28:40,320
and and show how we get space time

2517
01:28:44,229 --> 01:28:42,560
arising from that in in the way that you

2518
01:28:46,790 --> 01:28:44,239
know that some of these businesses are

2519
01:28:49,270 --> 01:28:46,800
trying to do i i think that will be

2520
01:28:50,950 --> 01:28:49,280
be interesting i think that it's a

2521
01:28:54,550 --> 01:28:50,960
separate question whether the real

2522
01:28:56,390 --> 01:28:54,560
numbers exist versus right that's

2523
01:28:58,229 --> 01:28:56,400
it's a it's a pretty strong statement to

2524
01:29:00,550 --> 01:28:58,239
say that real numbers don't exist that's

2525
01:29:02,550 --> 01:29:00,560
that's really quite interesting

2526
01:29:04,470 --> 01:29:02,560
to say that they don't exist

2527
01:29:05,910 --> 01:29:04,480
but i guess that that's where you want

2528
01:29:08,390 --> 01:29:05,920
to go anyway

2529
01:29:11,030 --> 01:29:08,400
yeah well i agree with categorized that

2530
01:29:13,110 --> 01:29:11,040
real numbers don't exist and the time

2531
01:29:15,110 --> 01:29:13,120
was not right back then so real numbers

2532
01:29:16,470 --> 01:29:15,120
are actually functions

2533
01:29:17,990 --> 01:29:16,480
and you can

2534
01:29:19,990 --> 01:29:18,000
can give you this function instead of a

2535
01:29:22,070 --> 01:29:20,000
real number and it can give you as many

2536
01:29:25,110 --> 01:29:22,080
digits as you want or as you can afford

2537
01:29:28,229 --> 01:29:25,120
to compute but this is it it's fine

2538
01:29:31,270 --> 01:29:28,239
so basically real numbers uh can be

2539
01:29:33,270 --> 01:29:31,280
derived in a deterministic fashion they

2540
01:29:35,430 --> 01:29:33,280
are determined once uh they are

2541
01:29:38,310 --> 01:29:35,440
predetermined in the sense

2542
01:29:40,229 --> 01:29:38,320
but uh you will not know the billions

2543
01:29:43,110 --> 01:29:40,239
digit of

2544
01:29:45,830 --> 01:29:43,120
the square root of two unless you find a

2545
01:29:47,189 --> 01:29:45,840
procedure to compute it and uh the

2546
01:29:49,030 --> 01:29:47,199
energy

2547
01:29:50,229 --> 01:29:49,040
for the neck entropy

2548
01:29:51,590 --> 01:29:50,239
to

2549
01:29:53,750 --> 01:29:51,600
actually get there

2550
01:29:57,510 --> 01:29:53,760
and this derivation of

2551
01:29:59,750 --> 01:29:57,520
a result via using upnic entropy i think

2552
01:30:01,430 --> 01:29:59,760
relates to our perception of time this

2553
01:30:03,350 --> 01:30:01,440
causal error of time which is aligned

2554
01:30:05,990 --> 01:30:03,360
with the entropic arrow

2555
01:30:08,229 --> 01:30:06,000
eric thresher finds a very good metaphor

2556
01:30:11,350 --> 01:30:08,239
in his book good and real i think to

2557
01:30:12,310 --> 01:30:11,360
give an intuition how a symmetric system

2558
01:30:14,149 --> 01:30:12,320
um

2559
01:30:15,510 --> 01:30:14,159
where the transitions are symmetric in

2560
01:30:16,550 --> 01:30:15,520
both directions

2561
01:30:18,149 --> 01:30:16,560
is still

2562
01:30:20,070 --> 01:30:18,159
not going to be

2563
01:30:22,790 --> 01:30:20,080
symmetric at scale when you look at it

2564
01:30:25,910 --> 01:30:22,800
so it digs as an example a well that is

2565
01:30:28,629 --> 01:30:25,920
made of large and small billiard balls

2566
01:30:31,669 --> 01:30:28,639
and did you put one of these billiard

2567
01:30:33,189 --> 01:30:31,679
balls in motion and uh the transaction

2568
01:30:35,830 --> 01:30:33,199
between the little balls are also

2569
01:30:38,390 --> 01:30:35,840
magical which means if you take a movie

2570
01:30:40,149 --> 01:30:38,400
and you play it forward and backward

2571
01:30:42,310 --> 01:30:40,159
you will see for the every interaction

2572
01:30:44,470 --> 01:30:42,320
between two billiard balls that it's the

2573
01:30:46,390 --> 01:30:44,480
same if you go the movie backwards or

2574
01:30:49,189 --> 01:30:46,400
forwards it's a simplified model where

2575
01:30:52,310 --> 01:30:49,199
you have no friction and so we have no

2576
01:30:53,590 --> 01:30:52,320
thermodynamic uh stuff going on we look

2577
01:30:55,830 --> 01:30:53,600
at the universe at the level where

2578
01:30:57,830 --> 01:30:55,840
thermodynamics doesn't exist yet because

2579
01:31:00,070 --> 01:30:57,840
this maybe the staff is too small to

2580
01:31:01,910 --> 01:31:00,080
have these losses right so we just look

2581
01:31:04,390 --> 01:31:01,920
at the billiard ball universe where

2582
01:31:07,669 --> 01:31:04,400
everything is deterministic and without

2583
01:31:09,990 --> 01:31:07,679
noise and in this model what we see is

2584
01:31:11,990 --> 01:31:10,000
that when we zoom out there is something

2585
01:31:13,990 --> 01:31:12,000
that is happening

2586
01:31:14,830 --> 01:31:14,000
at scale and that is

2587
01:31:17,750 --> 01:31:14,840
some

2588
01:31:20,950 --> 01:31:17,760
balls move after they have been hit and

2589
01:31:22,870 --> 01:31:20,960
keep moving hitting other balls

2590
01:31:24,950 --> 01:31:22,880
and there are if you play the movie

2591
01:31:26,470 --> 01:31:24,960
backwards it looks as if some balls are

2592
01:31:29,590 --> 01:31:26,480
anticipating that they are going to be

2593
01:31:31,350 --> 01:31:29,600
soon hit and start moving

2594
01:31:33,830 --> 01:31:31,360
as a result as if they would be hit

2595
01:31:35,830 --> 01:31:33,840
right so there is this asymmetry that uh

2596
01:31:37,669 --> 01:31:35,840
your balls leave a wake

2597
01:31:39,590 --> 01:31:37,679
behind them

2598
01:31:42,390 --> 01:31:39,600
and this vague

2599
01:31:44,149 --> 01:31:42,400
is describing in some sense the entropy

2600
01:31:46,070 --> 01:31:44,159
that we are looking at in our universe

2601
01:31:48,390 --> 01:31:46,080
that's the direction in which you can as

2602
01:31:50,470 --> 01:31:48,400
an embedded observer for memories

2603
01:31:52,709 --> 01:31:50,480
because in order to form memories you

2604
01:31:55,030 --> 01:31:52,719
rely on the dissipation of information

2605
01:31:56,550 --> 01:31:55,040
between locations

2606
01:31:58,790 --> 01:31:56,560
and so whenever

2607
01:32:00,229 --> 01:31:58,800
there is a way to form memories it means

2608
01:32:02,149 --> 01:32:00,239
that you are aligned with some kind of

2609
01:32:04,070 --> 01:32:02,159
entropic arrow

2610
01:32:05,990 --> 01:32:04,080
if you zoom out it means that you can

2611
01:32:07,430 --> 01:32:06,000
now sort the states of the universe in

2612
01:32:09,510 --> 01:32:07,440
such a way that you discover the

2613
01:32:11,189 --> 01:32:09,520
concentric wave that you are that you

2614
01:32:13,030 --> 01:32:11,199
are part of in our

2615
01:32:15,110 --> 01:32:13,040
ocean-like universe

2616
01:32:16,550 --> 01:32:15,120
has a point of origin

2617
01:32:18,229 --> 01:32:16,560
and this point of origin is a

2618
01:32:19,990 --> 01:32:18,239
construction that you make you discover

2619
01:32:22,550 --> 01:32:20,000
this by the wave expanding and you

2620
01:32:25,270 --> 01:32:22,560
discover it by information

2621
01:32:27,590 --> 01:32:25,280
moving diffusing across the locations in

2622
01:32:29,669 --> 01:32:27,600
the wave so there is a hypothetical

2623
01:32:30,790 --> 01:32:29,679
point

2624
01:32:32,790 --> 01:32:30,800
in the middle

2625
01:32:35,110 --> 01:32:32,800
where the information is not diffused

2626
01:32:40,470 --> 01:32:37,430
and this hypothetical point is what we

2627
01:32:42,709 --> 01:32:40,480
imagine to be the big bang

2628
01:32:44,870 --> 01:32:42,719
right and it's a mathematical

2629
01:32:45,990 --> 01:32:44,880
singularity in a way because if you are

2630
01:32:47,830 --> 01:32:46,000
in the big bank you don't know which

2631
01:32:50,470 --> 01:32:47,840
direction to go unless the big bang is

2632
01:32:52,229 --> 01:32:50,480
not completely perfect and symmetrical

2633
01:32:55,270 --> 01:32:52,239
and the interesting thing about this

2634
01:32:57,430 --> 01:32:55,280
before the big bang means uh it's it's

2635
01:32:59,350 --> 01:32:57,440
the wrong question to ask because before

2636
01:33:01,910 --> 01:32:59,360
the big bang if you it looked like it is

2637
01:33:03,750 --> 01:33:01,920
like a more rape pattern

2638
01:33:05,990 --> 01:33:03,760
this would be the point where the

2639
01:33:08,229 --> 01:33:06,000
information goes out of a distribution

2640
01:33:10,709 --> 01:33:08,239
or gets distributed or diffuses between

2641
01:33:13,430 --> 01:33:10,719
locations in the other direction every

2642
01:33:15,750 --> 01:33:13,440
point of every trajectory that goes away

2643
01:33:17,350 --> 01:33:15,760
from the big bang goes into a future

2644
01:33:18,870 --> 01:33:17,360
sorry to interrupt is this related to

2645
01:33:20,790 --> 01:33:18,880
the janus point

2646
01:33:21,669 --> 01:33:20,800
have you heard of julian barber's theory

2647
01:33:23,350 --> 01:33:21,679
of time

2648
01:33:27,110 --> 01:33:23,360
no

2649
01:33:29,430 --> 01:33:27,120
certain description basically we create

2650
01:33:31,270 --> 01:33:29,440
a certain mental model in which we

2651
01:33:34,470 --> 01:33:31,280
describe the

2652
01:33:36,390 --> 01:33:34,480
entropic era of time as the diffusion of

2653
01:33:38,709 --> 01:33:36,400
information across locations in the

2654
01:33:40,790 --> 01:33:38,719
universe and then we imagine that there

2655
01:33:42,390 --> 01:33:40,800
is a single point where this ends up and

2656
01:33:44,870 --> 01:33:42,400
we go through this point on the other

2657
01:33:47,430 --> 01:33:44,880
side we go back into another future

2658
01:33:49,430 --> 01:33:47,440
so so the further we go away from this

2659
01:33:51,510 --> 01:33:49,440
point in any direction the further we go

2660
01:33:53,910 --> 01:33:51,520
into a future in which systems could

2661
01:33:55,510 --> 01:33:53,920
form memories of the past and to form

2662
01:33:57,510 --> 01:33:55,520
memories of the past you need to have

2663
01:33:59,430 --> 01:33:57,520
some kind of reservoir of neck entropy

2664
01:34:01,830 --> 01:33:59,440
that you can tap and some kind of puddle

2665
01:34:04,229 --> 01:34:01,840
of neck entropy and then you can reason

2666
01:34:06,870 --> 01:34:04,239
about the conditions uh how such puddles

2667
01:34:08,790 --> 01:34:06,880
of neck entropy could form under which

2668
01:34:10,470 --> 01:34:08,800
conditions and how long they might last

2669
01:34:12,310 --> 01:34:10,480
i would like to get to the topic of free

2670
01:34:14,550 --> 01:34:12,320
will as well and then also some audience

2671
01:34:19,110 --> 01:34:14,560
questions so why don't you donald

2672
01:34:25,270 --> 01:34:20,470
okay uh

2673
01:34:25,280 --> 01:34:28,229
if

2674
01:34:32,790 --> 01:34:30,709
in a physicalist framework

2675
01:34:34,149 --> 01:34:32,800
which i so now i'll just talk about what

2676
01:34:37,189 --> 01:34:34,159
most of my

2677
01:34:39,990 --> 01:34:37,199
cognitive neuroscience peers think right

2678
01:34:41,750 --> 01:34:40,000
most of them assume that that physical

2679
01:34:43,750 --> 01:34:41,760
systems are fundamental

2680
01:34:45,830 --> 01:34:43,760
neural activity causes

2681
01:34:47,109 --> 01:34:45,840
um all of our behavior

2682
01:34:50,149 --> 01:34:47,119
and

2683
01:34:52,310 --> 01:34:50,159
in in that case um

2684
01:34:55,350 --> 01:34:52,320
there can be a a fiction of

2685
01:34:56,709 --> 01:34:55,360
a useful fiction of of free will but but

2686
01:34:59,189 --> 01:34:56,719
it's really just going to be a useful

2687
01:35:01,669 --> 01:34:59,199
fiction if i do something it's really my

2688
01:35:03,590 --> 01:35:01,679
neurons with the neural activity

2689
01:35:06,310 --> 01:35:03,600
that that did it and

2690
01:35:08,229 --> 01:35:06,320
um there is a sense in which you can say

2691
01:35:10,229 --> 01:35:08,239
i chose to do it because actually

2692
01:35:12,149 --> 01:35:10,239
neurons are part of me so i

2693
01:35:14,470 --> 01:35:12,159
i think that's the point of view that

2694
01:35:15,270 --> 01:35:14,480
dan dennett takes for example on this

2695
01:35:21,750 --> 01:35:15,280
and

2696
01:35:23,109 --> 01:35:21,760
that he says well yeah i also grill my

2697
01:35:25,910 --> 01:35:23,119
fingernails i'm not sure that i'm doing

2698
01:35:28,149 --> 01:35:25,920
that by free will but you know what

2699
01:35:29,510 --> 01:35:28,159
so so it's not real clear that just

2700
01:35:31,030 --> 01:35:29,520
because my neurons are doing it i have

2701
01:35:32,790 --> 01:35:31,040
free will just in the same sense that i

2702
01:35:34,870 --> 01:35:32,800
don't i'm not using free will to grow my

2703
01:35:35,910 --> 01:35:34,880
my my fingernails

2704
01:35:37,910 --> 01:35:35,920
um

2705
01:35:41,990 --> 01:35:37,920
so

2706
01:35:43,430 --> 01:35:42,000
as as free will if you're a physicist

2707
01:35:45,750 --> 01:35:43,440
dan dennett would say i'm a physicist

2708
01:35:46,950 --> 01:35:45,760
and there is this important notion of

2709
01:35:51,270 --> 01:35:46,960
free will

2710
01:35:54,950 --> 01:35:52,950
i i think that of course space time

2711
01:35:57,270 --> 01:35:54,960
isn't fundamental and so that we have to

2712
01:35:58,470 --> 01:35:57,280
completely think outside of that box all

2713
01:35:59,510 --> 01:35:58,480
together

2714
01:36:01,750 --> 01:35:59,520
and

2715
01:36:04,310 --> 01:36:01,760
as as scientists we have to

2716
01:36:05,750 --> 01:36:04,320
say up front what our hypotheses what

2717
01:36:09,750 --> 01:36:05,760
our axioms or

2718
01:36:12,470 --> 01:36:11,590
and and be very clear about them up

2719
01:36:14,310 --> 01:36:12,480
front

2720
01:36:16,790 --> 01:36:14,320
these conscious agents

2721
01:36:19,350 --> 01:36:16,800
in the mathematics they they get

2722
01:36:20,550 --> 01:36:19,360
certain inputs we call them experiences

2723
01:36:22,709 --> 01:36:20,560
that they have

2724
01:36:24,390 --> 01:36:22,719
and then they they there's a something

2725
01:36:26,709 --> 01:36:24,400
called a markovian kernel that that

2726
01:36:28,470 --> 01:36:26,719
describes what actions they take and

2727
01:36:30,229 --> 01:36:28,480
those actions affect the experiences of

2728
01:36:32,070 --> 01:36:30,239
other conscious agents

2729
01:36:33,910 --> 01:36:32,080
so so then there's so that's just the

2730
01:36:35,669 --> 01:36:33,920
mathematics that that my team has

2731
01:36:37,189 --> 01:36:35,679
written down it's a very simple notion

2732
01:36:39,030 --> 01:36:37,199
of markovian dynamics of conscious

2733
01:36:41,109 --> 01:36:39,040
agents interacting

2734
01:36:42,310 --> 01:36:41,119
and and it's not in the physical

2735
01:36:43,910 --> 01:36:42,320
framework

2736
01:36:46,149 --> 01:36:43,920
we're assuming that this is

2737
01:36:47,669 --> 01:36:46,159
you know in its own world right these

2738
01:36:49,430 --> 01:36:47,679
are conscious agents

2739
01:36:51,350 --> 01:36:49,440
and and that's the foundation space and

2740
01:36:53,350 --> 01:36:51,360
time are not the foundation conscious

2741
01:36:55,109 --> 01:36:53,360
agents so conscious experiences and

2742
01:36:57,830 --> 01:36:55,119
interactions of conscious agents are the

2743
01:36:58,629 --> 01:36:57,840
foundational notion

2744
01:37:01,350 --> 01:36:58,639
and

2745
01:37:02,790 --> 01:37:01,360
so then the question is how shall we

2746
01:37:04,550 --> 01:37:02,800
understand

2747
01:37:06,390 --> 01:37:04,560
the probabilities so if i get a

2748
01:37:08,709 --> 01:37:06,400
particular experience that

2749
01:37:10,229 --> 01:37:08,719
comes into a conscious agent

2750
01:37:11,830 --> 01:37:10,239
and it then

2751
01:37:13,910 --> 01:37:11,840
probabilistically affects the experience

2752
01:37:16,470 --> 01:37:13,920
of other agents how shall i

2753
01:37:17,750 --> 01:37:16,480
understand that probability

2754
01:37:20,070 --> 01:37:17,760
that it

2755
01:37:21,350 --> 01:37:20,080
shall i understand it as as a free will

2756
01:37:24,229 --> 01:37:21,360
choice

2757
01:37:27,830 --> 01:37:24,239
or or what um

2758
01:37:30,790 --> 01:37:29,350
you know i could say you know i refuse

2759
01:37:33,030 --> 01:37:30,800
to answer the question i just there's a

2760
01:37:35,030 --> 01:37:33,040
probability there and that's that's as

2761
01:37:36,790 --> 01:37:35,040
far as i go with with the theory there's

2762
01:37:39,910 --> 01:37:36,800
you know this agent

2763
01:37:42,470 --> 01:37:39,920
so i leave that probability as just um

2764
01:37:44,149 --> 01:37:42,480
where my theory stops right i say

2765
01:37:46,149 --> 01:37:44,159
in some sense wherever we see a

2766
01:37:47,669 --> 01:37:46,159
probability in a theory that's where

2767
01:37:48,950 --> 01:37:47,679
explanation stops

2768
01:37:51,109 --> 01:37:48,960
right

2769
01:37:53,990 --> 01:37:51,119
that's that's basically saying

2770
01:37:56,470 --> 01:37:54,000
i don't know like my so whenever so i

2771
01:37:59,030 --> 01:37:56,480
said is whenever in a scientific theory

2772
01:38:00,310 --> 01:37:59,040
you see probabilities coming up

2773
01:38:02,149 --> 01:38:00,320
um

2774
01:38:03,350 --> 01:38:02,159
you're seeing the theory say this is

2775
01:38:05,830 --> 01:38:03,360
where i halt

2776
01:38:09,910 --> 01:38:05,840
uh this is where my explanation stops

2777
01:38:12,950 --> 01:38:11,510
approaches toward understanding those

2778
01:38:14,229 --> 01:38:12,960
probabilities the objectivist and

2779
01:38:16,390 --> 01:38:14,239
subjectivist

2780
01:38:17,430 --> 01:38:16,400
to probabilities right so

2781
01:38:19,910 --> 01:38:17,440
objectivists say that these

2782
01:38:21,990 --> 01:38:19,920
probabilities are

2783
01:38:25,750 --> 01:38:22,000
pointing to some real

2784
01:38:28,070 --> 01:38:25,760
thing in the world there is some real

2785
01:38:29,750 --> 01:38:28,080
random generator in the world

2786
01:38:30,470 --> 01:38:29,760
um

2787
01:38:32,870 --> 01:38:30,480
and

2788
01:38:34,390 --> 01:38:32,880
subjectivists say no um

2789
01:38:36,790 --> 01:38:34,400
these are just degrees of beliefs

2790
01:38:38,870 --> 01:38:36,800
whenever you see probabilities

2791
01:38:41,189 --> 01:38:38,880
you're only talking about

2792
01:38:42,470 --> 01:38:41,199
degrees of belief

2793
01:38:45,910 --> 01:38:42,480
um but

2794
01:38:49,669 --> 01:38:48,149
explanation stops right

2795
01:38:51,350 --> 01:38:49,679
how do i come to that belief well i can

2796
01:38:53,510 --> 01:38:51,360
only tell you probabilities

2797
01:38:55,430 --> 01:38:53,520
what is that random objective process i

2798
01:38:57,990 --> 01:38:55,440
don't know but i can just tell you um

2799
01:38:59,669 --> 01:38:58,000
probabilities and so so really whenever

2800
01:39:01,590 --> 01:38:59,679
you see probabilities in the scientific

2801
01:39:03,350 --> 01:39:01,600
theory and they're all over the place

2802
01:39:06,550 --> 01:39:03,360
i read that as saying here's where

2803
01:39:08,950 --> 01:39:06,560
explanation stops um and our theories

2804
01:39:10,310 --> 01:39:08,960
our theories halt um and and if we want

2805
01:39:13,830 --> 01:39:10,320
to go further we're gonna have to unpack

2806
01:39:15,109 --> 01:39:13,840
that probability into some some deeper

2807
01:39:17,830 --> 01:39:15,119
deeper theory

2808
01:39:21,350 --> 01:39:19,669
if i say that it's

2809
01:39:24,830 --> 01:39:21,360
free will

2810
01:39:27,910 --> 01:39:24,840
in case of the conscious agents

2811
01:39:30,550 --> 01:39:27,920
um then i mean

2812
01:39:31,990 --> 01:39:30,560
in some sense that's just words

2813
01:39:34,149 --> 01:39:32,000
what what the theory has is the

2814
01:39:36,070 --> 01:39:34,159
probabilities and it has no further

2815
01:39:38,870 --> 01:39:36,080
explanation so if i say if i call that

2816
01:39:40,870 --> 01:39:38,880
probability of a free will

2817
01:39:43,669 --> 01:39:40,880
then i you know i can call it that but

2818
01:39:45,109 --> 01:39:43,679
but i haven't really done much to

2819
01:39:46,950 --> 01:39:45,119
give much insight into the notion of

2820
01:39:48,390 --> 01:39:46,960
free will free will then becomes a

2821
01:39:50,070 --> 01:39:48,400
primitive and and maybe that's what i

2822
01:39:52,709 --> 01:39:50,080
want to do i want to say um this is

2823
01:39:55,350 --> 01:39:52,719
where explanation stops and so free will

2824
01:39:59,030 --> 01:39:55,360
is primitive so when these probabilities

2825
01:40:01,750 --> 01:39:59,040
are our free will and i agree to that

2826
01:40:04,070 --> 01:40:01,760
that that's where my theory stops that i

2827
01:40:07,350 --> 01:40:04,080
i can do no further

2828
01:40:10,709 --> 01:40:09,270
now what's interesting in the in the the

2829
01:40:13,910 --> 01:40:10,719
conscious agent dynamics that we're

2830
01:40:16,950 --> 01:40:13,920
working on is that um

2831
01:40:19,430 --> 01:40:16,960
any group of conscious agents

2832
01:40:20,709 --> 01:40:19,440
together also satisfy the definition of

2833
01:40:22,629 --> 01:40:20,719
a conscious agent and so they are a

2834
01:40:25,030 --> 01:40:22,639
conscious agent so any conscious agents

2835
01:40:26,310 --> 01:40:25,040
interacting are also conscious agents so

2836
01:40:27,990 --> 01:40:26,320
they're in the third there's one

2837
01:40:29,510 --> 01:40:28,000
conscious agent

2838
01:40:32,950 --> 01:40:29,520
because if you take all of them together

2839
01:40:34,870 --> 01:40:32,960
they form one conscious agent but then

2840
01:40:36,470 --> 01:40:34,880
there are as many

2841
01:40:38,070 --> 01:40:36,480
um if you're computational there's only

2842
01:40:39,750 --> 01:40:38,080
accountable number of them or in my case

2843
01:40:41,510 --> 01:40:39,760
i don't know if it may be an uncountable

2844
01:40:43,590 --> 01:40:41,520
number of of conscious

2845
01:40:46,870 --> 01:40:43,600
agents but what's interesting is that

2846
01:40:49,270 --> 01:40:46,880
the you unpack this probability in the

2847
01:40:51,430 --> 01:40:49,280
markovian kernel there could be one big

2848
01:40:53,109 --> 01:40:51,440
probability for the one agent

2849
01:40:55,270 --> 01:40:53,119
but you can unpack that into all these

2850
01:40:57,109 --> 01:40:55,280
dynamical systems interacting conscious

2851
01:40:58,870 --> 01:40:57,119
agents with their own probabilities in

2852
01:41:01,669 --> 01:40:58,880
their own kernels and what's what's

2853
01:41:03,669 --> 01:41:01,679
interesting is that you could then

2854
01:41:05,430 --> 01:41:03,679
give in some sense an unpacking of the

2855
01:41:06,950 --> 01:41:05,440
notion of free will in that way you

2856
01:41:08,870 --> 01:41:06,960
could say well yeah the the one agent

2857
01:41:10,470 --> 01:41:08,880
has free will in this this probability

2858
01:41:12,870 --> 01:41:10,480
but i can actually

2859
01:41:14,629 --> 01:41:12,880
do some non-trivial unpacking of that

2860
01:41:17,590 --> 01:41:14,639
notion in this sort of recursive

2861
01:41:19,750 --> 01:41:17,600
unwinding of those probabilities um

2862
01:41:21,830 --> 01:41:19,760
throughout the network so so

2863
01:41:24,149 --> 01:41:21,840
there is the possibility here

2864
01:41:25,590 --> 01:41:24,159
of i mean ultimately

2865
01:41:27,270 --> 01:41:25,600
um

2866
01:41:29,030 --> 01:41:27,280
there will be a primitive notion of free

2867
01:41:31,350 --> 01:41:29,040
will that that is just primitive and not

2868
01:41:32,950 --> 01:41:31,360
explained but given that one i can

2869
01:41:34,470 --> 01:41:32,960
explain all these other free wills sort

2870
01:41:36,229 --> 01:41:34,480
of interacting

2871
01:41:38,950 --> 01:41:36,239
arising from this most primitive notion

2872
01:41:40,950 --> 01:41:38,960
of free will in a non-trivial

2873
01:41:43,189 --> 01:41:40,960
non-trivial way but but once again i i

2874
01:41:44,790 --> 01:41:43,199
would i would point out

2875
01:41:47,430 --> 01:41:44,800
something that i see all the time in

2876
01:41:49,350 --> 01:41:47,440
scientific theories no theory in science

2877
01:41:51,830 --> 01:41:49,360
will ever explain everything

2878
01:41:53,430 --> 01:41:51,840
and and and i would love to see if josh

2879
01:41:55,910 --> 01:41:53,440
joshua

2880
01:41:57,430 --> 01:41:55,920
agrees disagrees i i will just state to

2881
01:41:59,109 --> 01:41:57,440
make a strong claim

2882
01:42:00,629 --> 01:41:59,119
um

2883
01:42:02,870 --> 01:42:00,639
there cannot be a theory of everything

2884
01:42:05,430 --> 01:42:02,880
because every theory has to make

2885
01:42:07,590 --> 01:42:05,440
assumptions and those assumptions

2886
01:42:11,430 --> 01:42:07,600
are not explained they're assumed

2887
01:42:15,830 --> 01:42:13,590
okay am i correct in my

2888
01:42:17,590 --> 01:42:15,840
summary of your views on free will that

2889
01:42:19,430 --> 01:42:17,600
if in a physical theory you have

2890
01:42:21,270 --> 01:42:19,440
probability now some of that probability

2891
01:42:23,750 --> 01:42:21,280
is just due to our ignorance but if

2892
01:42:25,830 --> 01:42:23,760
there's a fundamental probability you

2893
01:42:27,510 --> 01:42:25,840
can just say well that's indicating that

2894
01:42:29,030 --> 01:42:27,520
the theories break down we just don't

2895
01:42:31,109 --> 01:42:29,040
know or you can say that there's

2896
01:42:32,229 --> 01:42:31,119
something underneath producing those and

2897
01:42:34,629 --> 01:42:32,239
that which is underneath the

2898
01:42:37,910 --> 01:42:34,639
probabilities is what you're calling

2899
01:42:40,310 --> 01:42:37,920
free will is that correct or is that off

2900
01:42:43,750 --> 01:42:40,320
right so if i'm a physicalist i'll say

2901
01:42:45,430 --> 01:42:43,760
that that probability is due to some

2902
01:42:46,790 --> 01:42:45,440
process that i can say no more about but

2903
01:42:48,149 --> 01:42:46,800
there's some process that generates this

2904
01:42:50,550 --> 01:42:48,159
stuff it's not free will it's just a

2905
01:42:52,229 --> 01:42:50,560
physical process that that um i don't

2906
01:42:54,149 --> 01:42:52,239
know but if i'm taking consciousness to

2907
01:42:56,390 --> 01:42:54,159
be fundamental then it's an interesting

2908
01:42:58,870 --> 01:42:56,400
move to say that that that free that

2909
01:43:00,070 --> 01:42:58,880
that probability um can be interpreted

2910
01:43:01,669 --> 01:43:00,080
as

2911
01:43:03,750 --> 01:43:01,679
free will now of course i'm not

2912
01:43:05,750 --> 01:43:03,760
explaining anything i'm not you mean

2913
01:43:07,590 --> 01:43:05,760
i'm just putting the frame for the

2914
01:43:08,470 --> 01:43:07,600
notion free will the word free will on

2915
01:43:12,470 --> 01:43:08,480
it right

2916
01:43:14,709 --> 01:43:12,480
and and and free will becomes just a

2917
01:43:17,350 --> 01:43:14,719
a primitive notion as well i'm so that's

2918
01:43:18,629 --> 01:43:17,360
where my explanation stops and i'm the

2919
01:43:20,070 --> 01:43:18,639
most unpacking i can do is that

2920
01:43:21,270 --> 01:43:20,080
recursive unpacking that i that i

2921
01:43:23,430 --> 01:43:21,280
mentioned which is an interesting

2922
01:43:24,790 --> 01:43:23,440
unpacking but ultimately there's this

2923
01:43:26,870 --> 01:43:24,800
primitive notion of free will that i

2924
01:43:29,030 --> 01:43:26,880
have nothing further to say about but

2925
01:43:30,310 --> 01:43:29,040
but i think that um

2926
01:43:33,350 --> 01:43:30,320
that's not

2927
01:43:34,470 --> 01:43:33,360
a problem specific to this theory i the

2928
01:43:37,189 --> 01:43:34,480
last thing i was saying was that that's

2929
01:43:39,990 --> 01:43:37,199
endemic to all scientific theories every

2930
01:43:42,390 --> 01:43:40,000
scientific theory will have miracles at

2931
01:43:44,950 --> 01:43:42,400
its foundation by miracles i mean

2932
01:43:47,350 --> 01:43:44,960
assumptions that are taken for granted

2933
01:43:48,550 --> 01:43:47,360
and not explained

2934
01:43:50,070 --> 01:43:48,560
if you explain them then you'll have a

2935
01:43:51,750 --> 01:43:50,080
deeper theory with new assumptions that

2936
01:43:54,229 --> 01:43:51,760
explain those assumptions but the new

2937
01:43:55,430 --> 01:43:54,239
assumptions aren't explained and so so

2938
01:43:56,870 --> 01:43:55,440
in this sense

2939
01:43:58,550 --> 01:43:56,880
science can never have a theory of

2940
01:44:01,430 --> 01:43:58,560
everything because science

2941
01:44:05,109 --> 01:44:01,440
theories always have assumptions and the

2942
01:44:08,870 --> 01:44:07,590
yosha i know donald said quite a few

2943
01:44:10,550 --> 01:44:08,880
there are quite a few elements to pick

2944
01:44:12,070 --> 01:44:10,560
from there

2945
01:44:14,629 --> 01:44:12,080
three um

2946
01:44:15,830 --> 01:44:14,639
interlocking claims but let's address

2947
01:44:17,510 --> 01:44:15,840
them um

2948
01:44:18,709 --> 01:44:17,520
first of all i don't know whether there

2949
01:44:20,629 --> 01:44:18,719
can be a

2950
01:44:22,550 --> 01:44:20,639
one theory of everything

2951
01:44:24,390 --> 01:44:22,560
because my reasoning is not tight enough

2952
01:44:25,510 --> 01:44:24,400
to have to make that proof one way or

2953
01:44:27,350 --> 01:44:25,520
the other

2954
01:44:29,510 --> 01:44:27,360
so at this point i have to remain

2955
01:44:31,430 --> 01:44:29,520
agnostic because i think from where i

2956
01:44:33,189 --> 01:44:31,440
stand it seems to be possible that there

2957
01:44:36,709 --> 01:44:33,199
can be a theory of everything and it

2958
01:44:39,590 --> 01:44:36,719
seems to be possible that they cannot

2959
01:44:41,830 --> 01:44:39,600
from a computational list perspective

2960
01:44:42,709 --> 01:44:41,840
whenever you have a set of observations

2961
01:44:45,189 --> 01:44:42,719
that is

2962
01:44:47,430 --> 01:44:45,199
finite you will be able to construct a

2963
01:44:49,030 --> 01:44:47,440
computational model that explains how to

2964
01:44:51,669 --> 01:44:49,040
make such patterns

2965
01:44:54,950 --> 01:44:51,679
so in principle there can always be a

2966
01:44:57,430 --> 01:44:54,960
theory of everything that you observe

2967
01:44:59,030 --> 01:44:57,440
that's something that i cannot

2968
01:45:01,189 --> 01:44:59,040
they don't see a way around this so this

2969
01:45:02,790 --> 01:45:01,199
seems to be sound to me and i think that

2970
01:45:04,229 --> 01:45:02,800
can be formally proven

2971
01:45:05,830 --> 01:45:04,239
but uh

2972
01:45:07,669 --> 01:45:05,840
and it seems to be almost trivial that

2973
01:45:09,590 --> 01:45:07,679
it's too proven so it's more interesting

2974
01:45:11,910 --> 01:45:09,600
the question is can you narrow this down

2975
01:45:13,109 --> 01:45:11,920
to a single one to one theory of

2976
01:45:14,950 --> 01:45:13,119
everything

2977
01:45:16,790 --> 01:45:14,960
right you will be always stuck with

2978
01:45:18,149 --> 01:45:16,800
infinitely many theories of everything

2979
01:45:20,629 --> 01:45:18,159
where most of these theories will be

2980
01:45:21,830 --> 01:45:20,639
super inelegant and uh redundant and

2981
01:45:23,990 --> 01:45:21,840
basically recordings of your

2982
01:45:26,070 --> 01:45:24,000
observations or

2983
01:45:27,990 --> 01:45:26,080
will there be one theory that is the

2984
01:45:31,350 --> 01:45:28,000
most elegant and explains everything

2985
01:45:33,270 --> 01:45:31,360
deeply and wraps it up and of course if

2986
01:45:34,790 --> 01:45:33,280
you think about the space of all

2987
01:45:37,669 --> 01:45:34,800
theories and think of them as things

2988
01:45:40,629 --> 01:45:37,679
that you can do in a language and

2989
01:45:42,070 --> 01:45:40,639
in which you can define truth and if you

2990
01:45:43,990 --> 01:45:42,080
realize that the languages in which you

2991
01:45:46,229 --> 01:45:44,000
can define truth consistently these are

2992
01:45:47,510 --> 01:45:46,239
the computational languages it turns out

2993
01:45:49,910 --> 01:45:47,520
that all your models are going to be

2994
01:45:51,350 --> 01:45:49,920
automata and that you can sort the space

2995
01:45:54,149 --> 01:45:51,360
of automata by the length of the

2996
01:45:56,149 --> 01:45:54,159
definitions so it also seems that in

2997
01:45:59,030 --> 01:45:56,159
principle it should be possible to find

2998
01:46:00,950 --> 01:45:59,040
the shortest automaton between two every

2999
01:46:02,790 --> 01:46:00,960
pair of automata that you can construct

3000
01:46:04,550 --> 01:46:02,800
and connect with now the question is

3001
01:46:06,629 --> 01:46:04,560
what's your search procedure for all the

3002
01:46:08,550 --> 01:46:06,639
possible automata do you have a search

3003
01:46:10,149 --> 01:46:08,560
procedure that you can hope that

3004
01:46:12,709 --> 01:46:10,159
terminates

3005
01:46:15,510 --> 01:46:12,719
and this is uh not a question of whether

3006
01:46:17,189 --> 01:46:15,520
it's mathematically uh possible uh but

3007
01:46:18,709 --> 01:46:17,199
whether it's efficient so you do is

3008
01:46:20,470 --> 01:46:18,719
there an efficient

3009
01:46:23,270 --> 01:46:20,480
strategy to find the theory of

3010
01:46:25,430 --> 01:46:23,280
everything that is the shortest one

3011
01:46:27,510 --> 01:46:25,440
and so far we haven't found one

3012
01:46:29,430 --> 01:46:27,520
and it relates to

3013
01:46:31,430 --> 01:46:29,440
what ai is doing in machine learning

3014
01:46:33,910 --> 01:46:31,440
when it tries to identify what's going

3015
01:46:35,830 --> 01:46:33,920
on in the domain

3016
01:46:37,669 --> 01:46:35,840
so while in principle we can always be

3017
01:46:39,510 --> 01:46:37,679
sure that we could be a brain in a vet

3018
01:46:40,950 --> 01:46:39,520
and everything is just a nefarious

3019
01:46:42,310 --> 01:46:40,960
conspiracy

3020
01:46:44,709 --> 01:46:42,320
that is playing out and because we

3021
01:46:47,669 --> 01:46:44,719
cannot exclude this we can never be sure

3022
01:46:50,709 --> 01:46:47,679
that our theory of everything is uh

3023
01:46:52,950 --> 01:46:50,719
is the best theory that could exist

3024
01:46:55,830 --> 01:46:52,960
of things so that's obviously the case

3025
01:46:57,669 --> 01:46:55,840
but if we uh take out this single thing

3026
01:46:59,910 --> 01:46:57,679
and make the assumption that reality is

3027
01:47:01,910 --> 01:46:59,920
not a conspiracy

3028
01:47:03,830 --> 01:47:01,920
uh i think then it look starts to look a

3029
01:47:06,790 --> 01:47:03,840
lot brighter

3030
01:47:08,870 --> 01:47:06,800
let's get to the notion of free will

3031
01:47:10,950 --> 01:47:08,880
i think that free will is tied into the

3032
01:47:12,870 --> 01:47:10,960
notion of agency

3033
01:47:15,109 --> 01:47:12,880
and the best

3034
01:47:17,510 --> 01:47:15,119
explanation of what an agent is that i

3035
01:47:19,270 --> 01:47:17,520
found so far is that an agent is a

3036
01:47:21,189 --> 01:47:19,280
control system

3037
01:47:24,390 --> 01:47:21,199
that is intrinsically combined with its

3038
01:47:26,550 --> 01:47:24,400
own set point generator a control system

3039
01:47:29,270 --> 01:47:26,560
is a notion from cybernetics it means

3040
01:47:31,109 --> 01:47:29,280
you have some system like a thermostat

3041
01:47:32,870 --> 01:47:31,119
that is making a measurement using

3042
01:47:35,510 --> 01:47:32,880
sensors for instance the temperature in

3043
01:47:37,350 --> 01:47:35,520
the room and that has a factors by which

3044
01:47:38,950 --> 01:47:37,360
it can change the dynamics of the system

3045
01:47:40,470 --> 01:47:38,960
so the effector would be a switch that

3046
01:47:42,470 --> 01:47:40,480
turns the heating on and off and the

3047
01:47:44,149 --> 01:47:42,480
system that's being regulated is the

3048
01:47:46,310 --> 01:47:44,159
temperature in the room and the

3049
01:47:48,310 --> 01:47:46,320
temperature in the room is disturbed by

3050
01:47:51,109 --> 01:47:48,320
the environment

3051
01:47:53,270 --> 01:47:51,119
and a simple thermostat will only act on

3052
01:47:54,870 --> 01:47:53,280
its present measurement and then

3053
01:47:56,470 --> 01:47:54,880
translate this present measurement using

3054
01:47:59,030 --> 01:47:56,480
a single parameter into whether it

3055
01:48:00,629 --> 01:47:59,040
should switch or not and depending on

3056
01:48:03,350 --> 01:48:00,639
choosing that

3057
01:48:04,950 --> 01:48:03,360
parameter well you have a more efficient

3058
01:48:07,109 --> 01:48:04,960
regulation or not

3059
01:48:08,709 --> 01:48:07,119
but if you want to be more efficient you

3060
01:48:10,390 --> 01:48:08,719
need to model the environment and the

3061
01:48:12,149 --> 01:48:10,400
dynamics of the system

3062
01:48:14,870 --> 01:48:12,159
and maybe the dynamics of the sensory

3063
01:48:16,709 --> 01:48:14,880
system and the actuator itself

3064
01:48:19,590 --> 01:48:16,719
and you can do this it means that you

3065
01:48:21,990 --> 01:48:19,600
model the future of the regulation

3066
01:48:23,830 --> 01:48:22,000
based on past observations so if you

3067
01:48:25,990 --> 01:48:23,840
endow the controller with the ability to

3068
01:48:28,390 --> 01:48:26,000
make a model of the future and use this

3069
01:48:29,830 --> 01:48:28,400
control model to fine-tune the actions

3070
01:48:31,510 --> 01:48:29,840
of the controller

3071
01:48:33,350 --> 01:48:31,520
it means that this a controller now is

3072
01:48:34,870 --> 01:48:33,360
more than a thermostat it's not going to

3073
01:48:37,109 --> 01:48:34,880
just optimize the temperature in the

3074
01:48:39,270 --> 01:48:37,119
room in the next frame but it's going to

3075
01:48:40,950 --> 01:48:39,280
optimize the integral of the temperature

3076
01:48:43,270 --> 01:48:40,960
over a long time span so it basically

3077
01:48:46,070 --> 01:48:43,280
takes a long expectation horizon the

3078
01:48:48,390 --> 01:48:46,080
fast further it goes the better probably

3079
01:48:50,149 --> 01:48:48,400
and then it tries to minimize all the

3080
01:48:52,390 --> 01:48:50,159
temperature deviations from the ideal

3081
01:48:54,310 --> 01:48:52,400
temperature from the set point over that

3082
01:48:56,790 --> 01:48:54,320
time span and this means that depending

3083
01:48:58,709 --> 01:48:56,800
on the fidelity and detail of the model

3084
01:49:00,790 --> 01:48:58,719
of its environment and its interaction

3085
01:49:03,189 --> 01:49:00,800
with the environment and itself

3086
01:49:05,430 --> 01:49:03,199
it's going to be better and better if it

3087
01:49:07,590 --> 01:49:05,440
assumes that there are trajectories in

3088
01:49:09,109 --> 01:49:07,600
the world that are the result of its own

3089
01:49:11,109 --> 01:49:09,119
decisions

3090
01:49:13,189 --> 01:49:11,119
right by turning the temperature on and

3091
01:49:14,709 --> 01:49:13,199
off at this particular point in time i'm

3092
01:49:16,310 --> 01:49:14,719
going to get this in this result

3093
01:49:18,870 --> 01:49:16,320
depending on the weather outside

3094
01:49:20,390 --> 01:49:18,880
depending on how often people uh open

3095
01:49:22,629 --> 01:49:20,400
and close the door to the room at

3096
01:49:25,350 --> 01:49:22,639
different times of the day depending on

3097
01:49:27,910 --> 01:49:25,360
the aging of my sensor or the

3098
01:49:29,750 --> 01:49:27,920
distance of my sensor to the heating and

3099
01:49:31,990 --> 01:49:29,760
depending on whether the

3100
01:49:34,229 --> 01:49:32,000
window and on top of the sensor is

3101
01:49:36,550 --> 01:49:34,239
currently open or closed and so on i get

3102
01:49:38,629 --> 01:49:36,560
lots and more more ways to differentiate

3103
01:49:40,629 --> 01:49:38,639
the event flow in the universe and the

3104
01:49:42,709 --> 01:49:40,639
path that the universe can take and the

3105
01:49:44,229 --> 01:49:42,719
interactions uh that that i can have

3106
01:49:45,830 --> 01:49:44,239
with the universe that determine whether

3107
01:49:49,189 --> 01:49:45,840
somebody will open the window and so on

3108
01:49:52,390 --> 01:49:49,199
and so on right so you uh have all these

3109
01:49:54,950 --> 01:49:52,400
uh points where the controller is a very

3110
01:49:56,629 --> 01:49:54,960
differentiated model of reality where

3111
01:49:58,470 --> 01:49:56,639
it's going to prefer some events of

3112
01:50:00,629 --> 01:49:58,480
others and is going to

3113
01:50:02,629 --> 01:50:00,639
assign its own decisions to these

3114
01:50:04,390 --> 01:50:02,639
trajectories

3115
01:50:07,270 --> 01:50:04,400
and this decision making necessarily

3116
01:50:10,629 --> 01:50:07,280
happens under conditions of uncertainty

3117
01:50:12,149 --> 01:50:10,639
which means the controller will never be

3118
01:50:13,430 --> 01:50:12,159
completely sure which one is going to

3119
01:50:16,070 --> 01:50:13,440
the right decision the controller will

3120
01:50:17,510 --> 01:50:16,080
have to make educated guesses bets on

3121
01:50:19,669 --> 01:50:17,520
the future

3122
01:50:21,270 --> 01:50:19,679
and this even includes the models of

3123
01:50:22,790 --> 01:50:21,280
itself right the better the control

3124
01:50:25,270 --> 01:50:22,800
system understands itself and the

3125
01:50:27,350 --> 01:50:25,280
limitations of its modeling ability the

3126
01:50:29,750 --> 01:50:27,360
better its models are going to be so at

3127
01:50:31,270 --> 01:50:29,760
some point of complexity this thing is

3128
01:50:33,430 --> 01:50:31,280
going to understand its own modeling

3129
01:50:35,189 --> 01:50:33,440
procedure to improve it and to find gaps

3130
01:50:36,149 --> 01:50:35,199
in it and so on

3131
01:50:38,229 --> 01:50:36,159
and

3132
01:50:40,390 --> 01:50:38,239
this also means that when it starts to

3133
01:50:41,589 --> 01:50:40,400
do this it is going to discover that

3134
01:50:42,950 --> 01:50:41,599
there are agents in the world other

3135
01:50:45,189 --> 01:50:42,960
controllers that have set points

3136
01:50:46,790 --> 01:50:45,199
generators and model the future and make

3137
01:50:48,149 --> 01:50:46,800
decisions for instance people that might

3138
01:50:50,149 --> 01:50:48,159
open the window when you make the room

3139
01:50:52,229 --> 01:50:50,159
too hard and you lose energy because of

3140
01:50:54,470 --> 01:50:52,239
that right so maybe not overheat the

3141
01:50:56,390 --> 01:50:54,480
room when people are in the room uh

3142
01:50:57,990 --> 01:50:56,400
right this this means you have to model

3143
01:50:59,750 --> 01:50:58,000
agency at some point and you will also

3144
01:51:01,350 --> 01:50:59,760
discover yourself as an agent in the

3145
01:51:02,790 --> 01:51:01,360
world as a controller as a set point

3146
01:51:03,750 --> 01:51:02,800
generator and the ability to model the

3147
01:51:05,910 --> 01:51:03,760
future

3148
01:51:07,350 --> 01:51:05,920
and you will discover this before you

3149
01:51:09,350 --> 01:51:07,360
understand how your own modeling of the

3150
01:51:10,950 --> 01:51:09,360
future works

3151
01:51:12,629 --> 01:51:10,960
right so you also have to make bets on

3152
01:51:14,950 --> 01:51:12,639
how you work

3153
01:51:16,629 --> 01:51:14,960
before you understand yourself

3154
01:51:18,870 --> 01:51:16,639
right so you will discover a self model

3155
01:51:20,709 --> 01:51:18,880
the self model is the agent

3156
01:51:23,030 --> 01:51:20,719
where the contents of your own model are

3157
01:51:24,870 --> 01:51:23,040
driving the behavior of that agent

3158
01:51:26,790 --> 01:51:24,880
and it's a very particular agent it's

3159
01:51:29,030 --> 01:51:26,800
one where your reasoning and your

3160
01:51:31,430 --> 01:51:29,040
modeling has an influence on what this

3161
01:51:33,589 --> 01:51:31,440
agent is going to do a direct coupling

3162
01:51:35,750 --> 01:51:33,599
it's a very specific model a very

3163
01:51:37,990 --> 01:51:35,760
specific agent that you discover there

3164
01:51:39,830 --> 01:51:38,000
and so in some sense free will i think

3165
01:51:41,990 --> 01:51:39,840
is a perspective on decision making

3166
01:51:43,350 --> 01:51:42,000
under uncertainty

3167
01:51:45,350 --> 01:51:43,360
starting from the point where you

3168
01:51:47,109 --> 01:51:45,360
discover your own self model

3169
01:51:49,510 --> 01:51:47,119
up to the point where you deconstruct it

3170
01:51:51,510 --> 01:51:49,520
again and of course you will deconstruct

3171
01:51:53,030 --> 01:51:51,520
it again at some point you will be able

3172
01:51:54,149 --> 01:51:53,040
to fully understand how you are

3173
01:51:55,750 --> 01:51:54,159
operating

3174
01:51:57,030 --> 01:51:55,760
and once you do this

3175
01:51:58,709 --> 01:51:57,040
making your decision becomes

3176
01:51:59,830 --> 01:51:58,719
indistinguishable from predicting your

3177
01:52:01,109 --> 01:51:59,840
decision

3178
01:52:02,950 --> 01:52:01,119
and because of computational

3179
01:52:04,470 --> 01:52:02,960
irreducibility often you will not be

3180
01:52:06,229 --> 01:52:04,480
able to predict the position before you

3181
01:52:07,350 --> 01:52:06,239
make it right

3182
01:52:09,030 --> 01:52:07,360
but uh

3183
01:52:11,430 --> 01:52:09,040
as soon as you understand that there's

3184
01:52:13,270 --> 01:52:11,440
just a computational process going on

3185
01:52:14,870 --> 01:52:13,280
and you are understand the properties of

3186
01:52:17,750 --> 01:52:14,880
that process you will no longer

3187
01:52:20,550 --> 01:52:17,760
experience yourself as having free will

3188
01:52:22,470 --> 01:52:20,560
free will is a particular kind of model

3189
01:52:24,950 --> 01:52:22,480
that happens as a result of your own

3190
01:52:27,109 --> 01:52:24,960
self model being a simulacrum instead of

3191
01:52:29,430 --> 01:52:27,119
being a high fidelity simulation of how

3192
01:52:32,149 --> 01:52:29,440
you actually work

3193
01:52:34,390 --> 01:52:32,159
and we are young beings we don't get

3194
01:52:35,589 --> 01:52:34,400
very old it's very difficult for us to

3195
01:52:37,270 --> 01:52:35,599
get to the point where we fully

3196
01:52:38,950 --> 01:52:37,280
understand how we work

3197
01:52:41,030 --> 01:52:38,960
except in certain circumstances right

3198
01:52:42,790 --> 01:52:41,040
when we observe our children very often

3199
01:52:44,310 --> 01:52:42,800
we get to the point as parents that we

3200
01:52:46,470 --> 01:52:44,320
fully understand what they will be doing

3201
01:52:47,830 --> 01:52:46,480
in a given situation we can fully

3202
01:52:49,350 --> 01:52:47,840
understand their own actions and

3203
01:52:51,189 --> 01:52:49,360
anticipate their decisions and the child

3204
01:52:52,629 --> 01:52:51,199
might experience that it has free will

3205
01:52:53,990 --> 01:52:52,639
and we experience that the child has

3206
01:52:55,910 --> 01:52:54,000
revealed up to the point where we

3207
01:52:57,030 --> 01:52:55,920
suddenly understand oh this is what's

3208
01:52:58,629 --> 01:52:57,040
going on

3209
01:53:00,310 --> 01:52:58,639
and at this point i can completely

3210
01:53:02,070 --> 01:53:00,320
control the child because he can out

3211
01:53:04,149 --> 01:53:02,080
model it

3212
01:53:07,030 --> 01:53:04,159
right and it's only to the point where

3213
01:53:09,430 --> 01:53:07,040
this system is going to introduce levels

3214
01:53:11,589 --> 01:53:09,440
that are again reaching my own level

3215
01:53:14,310 --> 01:53:11,599
that decisions become unpredictable but

3216
01:53:16,310 --> 01:53:14,320
if i am a few levels of modelling depth

3217
01:53:18,390 --> 01:53:16,320
above the other agent that might think

3218
01:53:20,229 --> 01:53:18,400
that it is prevail the free will start

3219
01:53:22,229 --> 01:53:20,239
to disappear from my own perspective and

3220
01:53:24,149 --> 01:53:22,239
also happens in my own mind as many

3221
01:53:26,470 --> 01:53:24,159
things that i do but i thought as a

3222
01:53:28,149 --> 01:53:26,480
child i'm acting out of my own free will

3223
01:53:31,270 --> 01:53:28,159
and now i understand how mechanical it

3224
01:53:33,030 --> 01:53:31,280
is and i can deal with myself

3225
01:53:35,030 --> 01:53:33,040
by controlling myself by outmodeling

3226
01:53:39,510 --> 01:53:35,040
myself successively and becoming one

3227
01:53:44,149 --> 01:53:42,070
and and all that yoshi the um the

3228
01:53:45,750 --> 01:53:44,159
computational process the probabilities

3229
01:53:49,910 --> 01:53:45,760
in the transition rules you would view

3230
01:53:53,910 --> 01:53:51,830
yes so there is also this issue that i

3231
01:53:55,830 --> 01:53:53,920
don't actually exist in the way in which

3232
01:53:58,390 --> 01:53:55,840
i model myself i only exist to some

3233
01:54:00,790 --> 01:53:58,400
degree of approximation i'm not this big

3234
01:54:03,189 --> 01:54:00,800
tree that is strictly implemented in

3235
01:54:04,870 --> 01:54:03,199
physical reality i'm more like a bunch

3236
01:54:06,709 --> 01:54:04,880
of shrubbery

3237
01:54:09,750 --> 01:54:06,719
and some of the shrubbery is tasked with

3238
01:54:11,430 --> 01:54:09,760
making a model of myself as a tree

3239
01:54:13,830 --> 01:54:11,440
and that model is going to be a course

3240
01:54:16,470 --> 01:54:13,840
approximation so the fact that i am

3241
01:54:18,950 --> 01:54:16,480
unable to follow up on my plans means

3242
01:54:20,870 --> 01:54:18,960
that i'm only approximately implemented

3243
01:54:22,390 --> 01:54:20,880
right the rubber hand illusion is a good

3244
01:54:25,910 --> 01:54:22,400
example of how we're continually

3245
01:54:27,430 --> 01:54:25,920
redefining who we are right where you

3246
01:54:28,790 --> 01:54:27,440
tap and drag on the hand at the same

3247
01:54:30,709 --> 01:54:28,800
time you're

3248
01:54:31,510 --> 01:54:30,719
tapping and dragging on a rubber hand

3249
01:54:32,709 --> 01:54:31,520
and

3250
01:54:33,910 --> 01:54:32,719
if you do it just right with the person

3251
01:54:35,350 --> 01:54:33,920
they'll take this rubber hand and

3252
01:54:37,990 --> 01:54:35,360
incorporate it into their body image so

3253
01:54:39,430 --> 01:54:38,000
we're always learning who we are

3254
01:54:40,709 --> 01:54:39,440
but those probabilities in that learning

3255
01:54:43,270 --> 01:54:40,719
process you would take as objective

3256
01:54:44,870 --> 01:54:43,280
probabilities and not free will kinds of

3257
01:54:46,870 --> 01:54:44,880
probabilities

3258
01:54:49,030 --> 01:54:46,880
and what does it mean that a probability

3259
01:54:50,870 --> 01:54:49,040
is objective it only means based on the

3260
01:54:53,109 --> 01:54:50,880
models in which which i have currently

3261
01:54:54,950 --> 01:54:53,119
made and if i go

3262
01:54:58,070 --> 01:54:54,960
far beyond back i

3263
01:55:00,149 --> 01:54:58,080
cannot assign an objective probability

3264
01:55:02,070 --> 01:55:00,159
to the probabilities that i am observing

3265
01:55:03,350 --> 01:55:02,080
because they are contingent on the

3266
01:55:05,270 --> 01:55:03,360
assumption for instance i'm currently

3267
01:55:07,270 --> 01:55:05,280
not in a dream

3268
01:55:09,030 --> 01:55:07,280
or that my memories are correct or that

3269
01:55:11,270 --> 01:55:09,040
my data are correct or that my the

3270
01:55:12,790 --> 01:55:11,280
theories that event and to establish the

3271
01:55:15,910 --> 01:55:12,800
relationships between my measurements

3272
01:55:17,830 --> 01:55:15,920
and my data and so on are correct so uh

3273
01:55:19,750 --> 01:55:17,840
i do agree that at some point there are

3274
01:55:21,270 --> 01:55:19,760
a lot of assumptions go into this and

3275
01:55:23,669 --> 01:55:21,280
these assumptions

3276
01:55:25,990 --> 01:55:23,679
differ with you are usually mild

3277
01:55:28,310 --> 01:55:26,000
because i make so many observations that

3278
01:55:30,149 --> 01:55:28,320
at some point i can the

3279
01:55:32,470 --> 01:55:30,159
errors cancel each other out or there's

3280
01:55:34,950 --> 01:55:32,480
so many people that can verify my ideas

3281
01:55:37,430 --> 01:55:34,960
and shut them down and so my ideas don't

3282
01:55:39,270 --> 01:55:37,440
exist in isolation they are being shot

3283
01:55:40,870 --> 01:55:39,280
against every philosophy and physics

3284
01:55:42,390 --> 01:55:40,880
book that i can get my hands on and that

3285
01:55:44,950 --> 01:55:42,400
i understand right and every

3286
01:55:47,109 --> 01:55:44,960
conversation that i have so

3287
01:55:49,350 --> 01:55:47,119
that doesn't mean that uh i will

3288
01:55:51,430 --> 01:55:49,360
discover the truth in this way but it

3289
01:55:53,109 --> 01:55:51,440
means that i discover many many of the

3290
01:55:55,030 --> 01:55:53,119
possible errors that i can make and at

3291
01:55:57,750 --> 01:55:55,040
some point i realized that there is a

3292
01:56:00,390 --> 01:55:57,760
finite space of theories that exists

3293
01:56:02,629 --> 01:56:00,400
and uh that we are discovering the same

3294
01:56:05,030 --> 01:56:02,639
things again and again so when we ask

3295
01:56:07,270 --> 01:56:05,040
ourselves what are integers for instance

3296
01:56:09,030 --> 01:56:07,280
or what are rational numbers

3297
01:56:11,189 --> 01:56:09,040
there are many ways of making theories

3298
01:56:13,030 --> 01:56:11,199
about what integers are for instance we

3299
01:56:15,669 --> 01:56:13,040
can say that there are the cardinalities

3300
01:56:17,669 --> 01:56:15,679
of sets or so basically you count

3301
01:56:19,589 --> 01:56:17,679
members of a set and this is an integer

3302
01:56:21,669 --> 01:56:19,599
and all the numbers of members of sets

3303
01:56:23,109 --> 01:56:21,679
that you can have are integers

3304
01:56:24,870 --> 01:56:23,119
or you can say that they are a

3305
01:56:27,830 --> 01:56:24,880
subsequent labeling scheme that's the

3306
01:56:29,669 --> 01:56:27,840
definition that i currently prefer

3307
01:56:31,189 --> 01:56:29,679
or you can use pianos axioms to

3308
01:56:33,350 --> 01:56:31,199
formalize them

3309
01:56:35,510 --> 01:56:33,360
and it turns out that they all describe

3310
01:56:38,229 --> 01:56:35,520
exactly the same thing

3311
01:56:39,669 --> 01:56:38,239
there are all different perspectives on

3312
01:56:41,109 --> 01:56:39,679
the same thing and once you understand

3313
01:56:43,030 --> 01:56:41,119
the larger space that arounds the

3314
01:56:44,390 --> 01:56:43,040
integers you also understand why there

3315
01:56:45,750 --> 01:56:44,400
are different perspectives because you

3316
01:56:48,229 --> 01:56:45,760
understand how these perspectives are

3317
01:56:50,550 --> 01:56:48,239
being constructed and you can show that

3318
01:56:52,870 --> 01:56:50,560
it's all the same thing and this so in

3319
01:56:54,550 --> 01:56:52,880
some sense the integers are a fractal

3320
01:56:56,550 --> 01:56:54,560
and you can describe this fractal using

3321
01:56:58,709 --> 01:56:56,560
a generator function and you can also

3322
01:57:00,950 --> 01:56:58,719
describe it in many other ways

3323
01:57:03,589 --> 01:57:00,960
and it seems that mathematics or all the

3324
01:57:06,870 --> 01:57:03,599
languages that you can use that work are

3325
01:57:09,750 --> 01:57:06,880
usually a small relatively

3326
01:57:11,270 --> 01:57:09,760
intelligible set of fractals

3327
01:57:13,430 --> 01:57:11,280
and they are the boundary of what is

3328
01:57:16,070 --> 01:57:13,440
intelligible to the human mind

3329
01:57:18,149 --> 01:57:16,080
but not that far above it and probably

3330
01:57:21,350 --> 01:57:18,159
still inside of it

3331
01:57:23,589 --> 01:57:21,360
so i'm more optimistic than you are

3332
01:57:25,430 --> 01:57:23,599
i have a question for the both of you

3333
01:57:27,430 --> 01:57:25,440
it's about your models how much of it

3334
01:57:30,149 --> 01:57:27,440
would have to change let's say yosha in

3335
01:57:33,109 --> 01:57:30,159
your case if classical logic was indeed

3336
01:57:35,109 --> 01:57:33,119
correct if continuities exist and for

3337
01:57:37,270 --> 01:57:35,119
donald if the opposite was true so

3338
01:57:38,390 --> 01:57:37,280
continuity doesn't exist intuitionist

3339
01:57:41,669 --> 01:57:38,400
logic is

3340
01:57:47,910 --> 01:57:43,589
so

3341
01:57:49,750 --> 01:57:47,920
continuity must exist because everybody

3342
01:57:51,990 --> 01:57:49,760
was assuming that they did like most of

3343
01:57:53,830 --> 01:57:52,000
the eminent physicists thought that the

3344
01:57:55,669 --> 01:57:53,840
universe must be fundamentally

3345
01:57:57,830 --> 01:57:55,679
continuous many of the foundational

3346
01:58:00,310 --> 01:57:57,840
theories that we have in physics assume

3347
01:58:02,709 --> 01:58:00,320
that there is continuity and i thought

3348
01:58:05,589 --> 01:58:02,719
that my inability to derive continuity

3349
01:58:06,790 --> 01:58:05,599
to construct a continuous system

3350
01:58:08,709 --> 01:58:06,800
is the result of my lack of

3351
01:58:10,629 --> 01:58:08,719
understanding

3352
01:58:12,629 --> 01:58:10,639
and it took me quite some time to

3353
01:58:14,790 --> 01:58:12,639
realize that

3354
01:58:16,790 --> 01:58:14,800
what godel has stumbled upon

3355
01:58:18,229 --> 01:58:16,800
was actually the inside that continuity

3356
01:58:20,709 --> 01:58:18,239
cannot exist because it's not

3357
01:58:23,350 --> 01:58:20,719
constructive cannot be implemented

3358
01:58:26,070 --> 01:58:23,360
so once you have the infinities

3359
01:58:28,149 --> 01:58:26,080
and once you presuppose them there are

3360
01:58:29,270 --> 01:58:28,159
an amazing cornucopia all sorts of stuff

3361
01:58:31,350 --> 01:58:29,280
falls out

3362
01:58:32,870 --> 01:58:31,360
like you have hilbert's hotel that is

3363
01:58:34,390 --> 01:58:32,880
completely booked out but there's

3364
01:58:36,149 --> 01:58:34,400
infinitely many rooms and then there are

3365
01:58:38,470 --> 01:58:36,159
infinitely many buses coming on and you

3366
01:58:40,950 --> 01:58:38,480
just ask everybody to move in the room

3367
01:58:44,310 --> 01:58:40,960
with twice their number and then you fit

3368
01:58:46,229 --> 01:58:44,320
in the infinitely many new people right

3369
01:58:47,589 --> 01:58:46,239
this is not a feature

3370
01:58:49,350 --> 01:58:47,599
this is a bug

3371
01:58:51,270 --> 01:58:49,360
this shouldn't happen

3372
01:58:52,629 --> 01:58:51,280
i know how the hotels work no hotels

3373
01:58:54,470 --> 01:58:52,639
work like this

3374
01:58:56,950 --> 01:58:54,480
this is not good if something like this

3375
01:58:59,109 --> 01:58:56,960
happens and uh it's not surprising that

3376
01:59:00,470 --> 01:58:59,119
this blows up when you try to make

3377
01:59:03,189 --> 01:59:00,480
proofs

3378
01:59:06,310 --> 01:59:03,199
and so i think that hilbert's hotel

3379
01:59:08,070 --> 01:59:06,320
points not to a miracle in the universe

3380
01:59:09,910 --> 01:59:08,080
that under certain circumstances you get

3381
01:59:11,830 --> 01:59:09,920
something for nothing which is very nice

3382
01:59:13,910 --> 01:59:11,840
if you want to derive a universe from

3383
01:59:16,470 --> 01:59:13,920
nothing but

3384
01:59:18,550 --> 01:59:16,480
it shows that your language can break

3385
01:59:21,189 --> 01:59:18,560
and so i don't see a way to get the

3386
01:59:25,030 --> 01:59:21,199
languages in which continuity exists to

3387
01:59:26,950 --> 01:59:25,040
work and i cannot exclude that i'm wrong

3388
01:59:29,350 --> 01:59:26,960
and i might see a way in the future or

3389
01:59:31,350 --> 01:59:29,360
somebody else does in a way that i don't

3390
01:59:32,790 --> 01:59:31,360
i just don't see a way how to make

3391
01:59:34,310 --> 01:59:32,800
continuity work

3392
01:59:35,910 --> 01:59:34,320
but i get all the benefits from

3393
01:59:37,669 --> 01:59:35,920
continuity for the description of

3394
01:59:39,750 --> 01:59:37,679
practical systems

3395
01:59:41,109 --> 01:59:39,760
using discrete logic

3396
01:59:42,629 --> 01:59:41,119
so in this sense i would say that

3397
01:59:44,629 --> 01:59:42,639
dynamical systems that are truly

3398
01:59:46,310 --> 01:59:44,639
continuous don't exist

3399
01:59:47,750 --> 01:59:46,320
they're not causally existing they

3400
01:59:49,669 --> 01:59:47,760
cannot be causal

3401
01:59:52,709 --> 01:59:49,679
they are a layer of description that i

3402
01:59:54,229 --> 01:59:52,719
use to deal with too many parts to count

3403
01:59:56,550 --> 01:59:54,239
and there are sometimes a very useful

3404
01:59:58,870 --> 01:59:56,560
abstraction but they cannot be used for

3405
02:00:00,709 --> 01:59:58,880
a foundational theory

3406
02:00:02,550 --> 02:00:00,719
because the foundational stuff

3407
02:00:04,470 --> 02:00:02,560
has to work it has to be described in a

3408
02:00:06,709 --> 02:00:04,480
language where all the element

3409
02:00:07,910 --> 02:00:06,719
parts have to interface and stretch away

3410
02:00:09,669 --> 02:00:07,920
that your language doesn't blow up

3411
02:00:11,589 --> 02:00:09,679
because otherwise the terms in your

3412
02:00:14,709 --> 02:00:11,599
language don't mean anything so what

3413
02:00:16,709 --> 02:00:14,719
this means is that the word continuity

3414
02:00:18,790 --> 02:00:16,719
does not actually mean anything in my

3415
02:00:21,189 --> 02:00:18,800
world it does not have a useful

3416
02:00:23,350 --> 02:00:21,199
reference i cannot point at anything

3417
02:00:25,430 --> 02:00:23,360
that is truly continuous without my

3418
02:00:27,430 --> 02:00:25,440
language breaking

3419
02:00:29,910 --> 02:00:27,440
so it doesn't exist it's a word that

3420
02:00:32,470 --> 02:00:29,920
only exists as a confusion but it exists

3421
02:00:35,510 --> 02:00:32,480
approximately it exists as the dynamics

3422
02:00:37,430 --> 02:00:35,520
of too many parts to count which is fine

3423
02:00:39,510 --> 02:00:37,440
so i'm a confused man and when you say

3424
02:00:41,350 --> 02:00:39,520
that the language is breaking i just see

3425
02:00:43,830 --> 02:00:41,360
it as you saying that there are

3426
02:00:45,510 --> 02:00:43,840
extremely unintuitive results that well

3427
02:00:47,430 --> 02:00:45,520
they don't seem to make sense but it

3428
02:00:49,510 --> 02:00:47,440
doesn't mean that they don't make sense

3429
02:00:51,589 --> 02:00:49,520
because you defined work as what's

3430
02:00:53,030 --> 02:00:51,599
implementable now what it doesn't work

3431
02:00:55,430 --> 02:00:53,040
means that you can no longer derive

3432
02:00:56,709 --> 02:00:55,440
truth it means for instance in an

3433
02:00:58,870 --> 02:00:56,719
exomatic system if you have a

3434
02:01:00,470 --> 02:00:58,880
contradiction in your axioms

3435
02:01:03,189 --> 02:01:00,480
it means that you can certainly derive

3436
02:01:06,629 --> 02:01:05,270
and nothing it just means that your

3437
02:01:08,709 --> 02:01:06,639
fractal is no longer having a

3438
02:01:09,830 --> 02:01:08,719
discernable structure this is what it

3439
02:01:11,109 --> 02:01:09,840
means that it's breaking

3440
02:01:13,589 --> 02:01:11,119
[Music]

3441
02:01:15,990 --> 02:01:13,599
what is the exact contradiction

3442
02:01:18,070 --> 02:01:16,000
in classical logic because it seems as

3443
02:01:20,229 --> 02:01:18,080
though mathematicians are getting along

3444
02:01:21,830 --> 02:01:20,239
fine and it's difficult extremely

3445
02:01:22,790 --> 02:01:21,840
difficult to prove certain theorems and

3446
02:01:24,790 --> 02:01:22,800
it wouldn't be if there was a

3447
02:01:27,350 --> 02:01:24,800
contradiction well not necessarily but

3448
02:01:29,430 --> 02:01:27,360
you understand what i mean yes so the

3449
02:01:31,910 --> 02:01:29,440
issue is that the assumption of a

3450
02:01:34,149 --> 02:01:31,920
stateless platonic notion of truth that

3451
02:01:36,550 --> 02:01:34,159
holds independent of the process by

3452
02:01:38,629 --> 02:01:36,560
which you discover the truth

3453
02:01:40,390 --> 02:01:38,639
leads into contradictions

3454
02:01:42,229 --> 02:01:40,400
and this was what goodl had proven it

3455
02:01:44,550 --> 02:01:42,239
basically means that the sentence that

3456
02:01:46,629 --> 02:01:44,560
is true under these assumptions is also

3457
02:01:47,910 --> 02:01:46,639
false under these assumptions so it

3458
02:01:50,629 --> 02:01:47,920
cannot be true and this is where

3459
02:01:52,550 --> 02:01:50,639
undecidability comes in it just it's not

3460
02:01:54,310 --> 02:01:52,560
just about that some sentences are not

3461
02:01:56,550 --> 02:01:54,320
reachable because you don't know whether

3462
02:01:58,709 --> 02:01:56,560
they're true or false it also means that

3463
02:02:00,470 --> 02:01:58,719
there are some sentences that are true

3464
02:02:02,310 --> 02:02:00,480
and false at the same time

3465
02:02:04,310 --> 02:02:02,320
but if you have to find true inside

3466
02:02:06,709 --> 02:02:04,320
truth in such a way that it can that it

3467
02:02:08,550 --> 02:02:06,719
includes false falsity right something

3468
02:02:10,470 --> 02:02:08,560
is either true or false

3469
02:02:12,950 --> 02:02:10,480
if you have an excluded middle then this

3470
02:02:14,709 --> 02:02:12,960
cannot be the case so this is a very bad

3471
02:02:17,510 --> 02:02:14,719
result it just means that your language

3472
02:02:19,910 --> 02:02:17,520
is not working it gets to illegal states

3473
02:02:22,149 --> 02:02:19,920
it just means that the application of

3474
02:02:24,709 --> 02:02:22,159
steps that you have prescribed in your

3475
02:02:26,870 --> 02:02:24,719
logic if you apply them properly leads

3476
02:02:28,470 --> 02:02:26,880
to an undefined result

3477
02:02:30,310 --> 02:02:28,480
it means that your

3478
02:02:32,390 --> 02:02:30,320
language is seg-faulting it means your

3479
02:02:34,229 --> 02:02:32,400
mind is breaking apart it means that the

3480
02:02:36,470 --> 02:02:34,239
thoughts that you are thinking no longer

3481
02:02:37,589 --> 02:02:36,480
have meaning because they can no longer

3482
02:02:41,510 --> 02:02:37,599
point to anything that could be

3483
02:02:45,990 --> 02:02:43,910
okay so don the question that i asked

3484
02:02:48,229 --> 02:02:46,000
before was let's imagine that

3485
02:02:50,709 --> 02:02:48,239
intuitionist logic is correct how does

3486
02:02:53,990 --> 02:02:50,719
your theory change

3487
02:02:54,000 --> 02:02:57,669
i mean i could easily

3488
02:03:01,750 --> 02:02:59,589
implement the theory of conscious agents

3489
02:03:04,550 --> 02:03:01,760
you know in an intuitionist logic kind

3490
02:03:06,229 --> 02:03:04,560
of approach and and run it that way so

3491
02:03:07,990 --> 02:03:06,239
that that wouldn't really change my my

3492
02:03:11,830 --> 02:03:08,000
theory of conscious agents

3493
02:03:15,510 --> 02:03:12,830
my

3494
02:03:17,589 --> 02:03:15,520
own thinking on this i guess does differ

3495
02:03:19,350 --> 02:03:17,599
from yoshi's in in an interesting way

3496
02:03:21,750 --> 02:03:19,360
here and that that is

3497
02:03:23,750 --> 02:03:21,760
i do take girdles

3498
02:03:25,350 --> 02:03:23,760
result

3499
02:03:27,030 --> 02:03:25,360
not not necessarily to show that the

3500
02:03:30,709 --> 02:03:27,040
notion of continuity

3501
02:03:31,510 --> 02:03:30,719
is is nonsense or contradictory

3502
02:03:33,830 --> 02:03:31,520
but

3503
02:03:35,109 --> 02:03:33,840
rather that if i have a finite system of

3504
02:03:38,070 --> 02:03:35,119
axioms

3505
02:03:40,070 --> 02:03:38,080
in derivation rules

3506
02:03:41,589 --> 02:03:40,080
then

3507
02:03:44,310 --> 02:03:41,599
and you can look at the set of

3508
02:03:46,790 --> 02:03:44,320
statements that can be proven by that

3509
02:03:48,870 --> 02:03:46,800
system and then you can find statements

3510
02:03:51,189 --> 02:03:48,880
that that are not provable within the

3511
02:03:52,790 --> 02:03:51,199
system that so so they're undecidable

3512
02:03:56,709 --> 02:03:52,800
from within that system

3513
02:03:58,229 --> 02:03:56,719
but you can what what girdle did was to

3514
02:04:00,470 --> 02:03:58,239
to put a mapping

3515
02:04:03,030 --> 02:04:00,480
onto the the language of the system so

3516
02:04:05,030 --> 02:04:03,040
he could write down

3517
02:04:06,390 --> 02:04:05,040
an analogy as this douglas hofstadter

3518
02:04:08,629 --> 02:04:06,400
likes to talk about he he found an

3519
02:04:10,229 --> 02:04:08,639
analogy that he could write down where

3520
02:04:11,830 --> 02:04:10,239
there was this new sent there is a

3521
02:04:15,030 --> 02:04:11,840
sentence i could write down

3522
02:04:19,189 --> 02:04:15,040
that that says i am true

3523
02:04:23,189 --> 02:04:21,510
and that that doesn't seem to me to

3524
02:04:25,430 --> 02:04:23,199
require me going all the way off to in

3525
02:04:27,669 --> 02:04:25,440
to uncountable infinities and continuity

3526
02:04:29,510 --> 02:04:27,679
and so forth it's just saying i mean

3527
02:04:31,350 --> 02:04:29,520
here's the deflationary reading of

3528
02:04:33,510 --> 02:04:31,360
girdle it's just saying you give me any

3529
02:04:35,669 --> 02:04:33,520
computational system i'll find a

3530
02:04:37,189 --> 02:04:35,679
statement that that's true but can't be

3531
02:04:39,750 --> 02:04:37,199
derived from within that system

3532
02:04:42,069 --> 02:04:39,760
therefore any computation that you pick

3533
02:04:43,990 --> 02:04:42,079
um isn't the final word

3534
02:04:47,189 --> 02:04:44,000
i don't have to go all the way to you

3535
02:04:51,350 --> 02:04:49,109
uncountable sets and so forth i can just

3536
02:04:53,990 --> 02:04:51,360
i can just use that to say that the

3537
02:04:56,310 --> 02:04:54,000
computation can't be the final truth

3538
02:04:58,470 --> 02:04:56,320
um and so that would be uh

3539
02:05:02,310 --> 02:04:58,480
sort of the minimal way and

3540
02:05:06,470 --> 02:05:04,229
researchers have interpreted girdle but

3541
02:05:08,069 --> 02:05:06,480
but um i guess you should disagrees on

3542
02:05:16,310 --> 02:05:08,079
that

3543
02:05:18,790 --> 02:05:16,320
after good language broke

3544
02:05:20,790 --> 02:05:18,800
well what you do is you take the the the

3545
02:05:23,189 --> 02:05:20,800
new statement

3546
02:05:24,550 --> 02:05:23,199
that that you showed was undecidable

3547
02:05:27,750 --> 02:05:24,560
within that

3548
02:05:29,189 --> 02:05:27,760
add it to your computational system

3549
02:05:31,669 --> 02:05:29,199
right every computational system has

3550
02:05:33,750 --> 02:05:31,679
axioms you don't compute without some

3551
02:05:35,430 --> 02:05:33,760
assumptions so your computation has to

3552
02:05:37,270 --> 02:05:35,440
have certain accents to begin with so

3553
02:05:39,430 --> 02:05:37,280
you add it to your accent it's now still

3554
02:05:41,270 --> 02:05:39,440
a finite set of axioms and now you say

3555
02:05:42,709 --> 02:05:41,280
okay now i'm good i i took that

3556
02:05:45,109 --> 02:05:42,719
undecidable sentence and i put it into

3557
02:05:46,709 --> 02:05:45,119
my set of axioms i'm good now i'm done

3558
02:05:48,069 --> 02:05:46,719
well no you're not now because girdle

3559
02:05:50,069 --> 02:05:48,079
comes back and says you know what i just

3560
02:05:51,990 --> 02:05:50,079
found another statement within your new

3561
02:05:53,910 --> 02:05:52,000
system and that's not computable so i'm

3562
02:05:55,589 --> 02:05:53,920
not getting anywhere near to these

3563
02:05:57,910 --> 02:05:55,599
uncountable infinities now wait wait

3564
02:05:59,589 --> 02:05:57,920
wait uh you're making a step too far

3565
02:06:01,430 --> 02:05:59,599
here i think you have just found this

3566
02:06:03,430 --> 02:06:01,440
procedure that discovers that something

3567
02:06:05,510 --> 02:06:03,440
is true that is not

3568
02:06:07,990 --> 02:06:05,520
true according to mathematics

3569
02:06:10,149 --> 02:06:08,000
so good is trying to find a foundation

3570
02:06:12,149 --> 02:06:10,159
for all of mathematics

3571
02:06:14,149 --> 02:06:12,159
and he does this by reducing the

3572
02:06:15,750 --> 02:06:14,159
mathematics that he's interested in to

3573
02:06:17,669 --> 02:06:15,760
piano arithmetic

3574
02:06:19,750 --> 02:06:17,679
and then computes all of mathematics in

3575
02:06:21,830 --> 02:06:19,760
piano arithmetic and discovers that he

3576
02:06:23,270 --> 02:06:21,840
cannot recover the semantics that he

3577
02:06:25,270 --> 02:06:23,280
wanted to discover

3578
02:06:26,709 --> 02:06:25,280
which was a platonic notion of truth one

3579
02:06:28,950 --> 02:06:26,719
that is independent of the state

3580
02:06:30,390 --> 02:06:28,960
sequence that he runs it through this is

3581
02:06:31,990 --> 02:06:30,400
the thing that you cannot recover and

3582
02:06:33,189 --> 02:06:32,000
you try to recover the original

3583
02:06:36,390 --> 02:06:33,199
mathematics

3584
02:06:39,030 --> 02:06:36,400
by extending uh the exomatic system

3585
02:06:41,270 --> 02:06:39,040
piano's axioms with an infinite sent a

3586
02:06:43,510 --> 02:06:41,280
set of arbitrary statements this doesn't

3587
02:06:45,189 --> 02:06:43,520
seem to be very elegant also of course

3588
02:06:46,550 --> 02:06:45,199
google shows that it doesn't terminate

3589
02:06:48,470 --> 02:06:46,560
it doesn't work it's not fixing

3590
02:06:51,830 --> 02:06:48,480
mathematics in any way

3591
02:06:53,830 --> 02:06:51,840
so uh you still have in the intuition

3592
02:06:55,990 --> 02:06:53,840
here that you have a procedure that

3593
02:06:58,709 --> 02:06:56,000
allows you to discover truth in ways

3594
02:07:00,629 --> 02:06:58,719
that gerda's procedure could not

3595
02:07:03,830 --> 02:07:00,639
and if you have that procedure you

3596
02:07:05,990 --> 02:07:03,840
should be able to prove that it's true

3597
02:07:07,910 --> 02:07:06,000
if you cannot prove that it's true i'm

3598
02:07:09,669 --> 02:07:07,920
not going to believe you

3599
02:07:12,149 --> 02:07:09,679
i don't think that the statements that

3600
02:07:15,030 --> 02:07:12,159
you think are true but my system cannot

3601
02:07:19,270 --> 02:07:17,030
right unless you can compute them right

3602
02:07:21,350 --> 02:07:19,280
so you have to show away and that would

3603
02:07:23,270 --> 02:07:21,360
force me as a rational uh

3604
02:07:25,189 --> 02:07:23,280
observer and colleague of yours that is

3605
02:07:27,270 --> 02:07:25,199
completely uh

3606
02:07:29,430 --> 02:07:27,280
terrible and so on and reasonable and

3607
02:07:30,950 --> 02:07:29,440
rational right to follow you there right

3608
02:07:33,750 --> 02:07:30,960
so if you can give me a rational

3609
02:07:34,870 --> 02:07:33,760
procedure then i expect that this

3610
02:07:37,030 --> 02:07:34,880
procedure

3611
02:07:39,510 --> 02:07:37,040
will be computational that it will there

3612
02:07:42,709 --> 02:07:39,520
will be a sequence of steps

3613
02:07:44,550 --> 02:07:42,719
that i can follow to see why your claim

3614
02:07:45,830 --> 02:07:44,560
that this sentence is true is actually

3615
02:07:47,910 --> 02:07:45,840
valid

3616
02:07:50,229 --> 02:07:47,920
if you cannot make such a claim i i

3617
02:07:52,870 --> 02:07:50,239
don't see how i can believe you

3618
02:07:54,629 --> 02:07:52,880
well so so the way the do i understand

3619
02:07:55,669 --> 02:07:54,639
girdle doing it is that he you know he

3620
02:07:56,790 --> 02:07:55,679
comes up with this whole girdle

3621
02:07:57,990 --> 02:07:56,800
numbering

3622
02:08:00,069 --> 02:07:58,000
approach

3623
02:08:03,270 --> 02:08:00,079
and he he takes you through and and

3624
02:08:05,430 --> 02:08:03,280
shows you this this mapping from the

3625
02:08:07,350 --> 02:08:05,440
from the numbers into these girdle

3626
02:08:09,030 --> 02:08:07,360
numbers that are making statements about

3627
02:08:10,550 --> 02:08:09,040
the numbers themselves

3628
02:08:12,550 --> 02:08:10,560
and you look at that and you go yeah

3629
02:08:14,229 --> 02:08:12,560
okay bye i understand that mapping

3630
02:08:16,069 --> 02:08:14,239
that's perfectly fine

3631
02:08:18,470 --> 02:08:16,079
and now i can write down within that

3632
02:08:20,709 --> 02:08:18,480
mapping i can write down this number

3633
02:08:23,350 --> 02:08:20,719
and when i look at the interpretation of

3634
02:08:25,669 --> 02:08:23,360
that number under this mapping

3635
02:08:29,430 --> 02:08:25,679
the the number says

3636
02:08:32,790 --> 02:08:29,440
i am true but not provable within piano

3637
02:08:35,109 --> 02:08:32,800
and so so now um i mean at this point i

3638
02:08:37,830 --> 02:08:35,119
sort of agree with roger penrose

3639
02:08:39,830 --> 02:08:37,840
penrose looks at that and says okay that

3640
02:08:41,350 --> 02:08:39,840
that means that there is something true

3641
02:08:43,750 --> 02:08:41,360
here

3642
02:08:46,470 --> 02:08:43,760
um i can see that it's true it's i i

3643
02:08:48,390 --> 02:08:46,480
don't disbelieve i mean i saw the whole

3644
02:08:50,709 --> 02:08:48,400
girdle numbering construction

3645
02:08:52,950 --> 02:08:50,719
i saw how the sentence came to say what

3646
02:08:54,629 --> 02:08:52,960
it says and i agree that it's that that

3647
02:08:56,310 --> 02:08:54,639
it's all consistent

3648
02:08:58,069 --> 02:08:56,320
and what it's saying

3649
02:08:59,750 --> 02:08:58,079
is saying that it's true and not

3650
02:09:00,470 --> 02:08:59,760
provable

3651
02:09:04,950 --> 02:09:00,480
so

3652
02:09:07,030 --> 02:09:04,960
point i

3653
02:09:09,510 --> 02:09:07,040
i guess i sort of agree with penrose at

3654
02:09:11,830 --> 02:09:09,520
that point i go okay there's something

3655
02:09:12,790 --> 02:09:11,840
beyond the notion of

3656
02:09:15,030 --> 02:09:12,800
proof

3657
02:09:17,430 --> 02:09:15,040
beyond the notion of derivation that's

3658
02:09:18,790 --> 02:09:17,440
going on here there's the looking at

3659
02:09:24,310 --> 02:09:18,800
analogies

3660
02:09:26,550 --> 02:09:24,320
that where we go this this sentence is

3661
02:09:29,430 --> 02:09:26,560
clearly true and it's also by its own

3662
02:09:31,030 --> 02:09:29,440
statement its own declaration that it's

3663
02:09:33,270 --> 02:09:31,040
not provable within

3664
02:09:34,790 --> 02:09:33,280
within this this finite computational

3665
02:09:37,270 --> 02:09:34,800
system yeah

3666
02:09:39,830 --> 02:09:37,280
perros is fascinating he thinks that our

3667
02:09:42,709 --> 02:09:39,840
brains are physical systems and he also

3668
02:09:45,030 --> 02:09:42,719
thinks that our mental processes are

3669
02:09:47,430 --> 02:09:45,040
generated by the brain probably

3670
02:09:48,950 --> 02:09:47,440
but that our brains can do mathematics

3671
02:09:51,589 --> 02:09:48,960
that go beyond the mathematics that

3672
02:09:53,669 --> 02:09:51,599
computers can do that is a very specific

3673
02:09:55,350 --> 02:09:53,679
statement that is more concrete i think

3674
02:09:58,709 --> 02:09:55,360
specific than what you've said so far

3675
02:10:01,109 --> 02:09:58,719
sure and uh it leads him to uh

3676
02:10:03,109 --> 02:10:01,119
to if a weird spot which is quite lonely

3677
02:10:04,790 --> 02:10:03,119
at the moment but i i find this

3678
02:10:06,950 --> 02:10:04,800
nevertheless a very interesting argument

3679
02:10:08,390 --> 02:10:06,960
to make i'm uh afraid we will not be

3680
02:10:10,709 --> 02:10:08,400
able to resolve it today because i have

3681
02:10:12,310 --> 02:10:10,719
to drop now yeah but

3682
02:10:14,149 --> 02:10:12,320
i found it very interesting to see that

3683
02:10:15,109 --> 02:10:14,159
you are appendrosis at the end of the

3684
02:10:17,669 --> 02:10:15,119
day

3685
02:10:19,430 --> 02:10:17,679
well um i don't like the microtubules

3686
02:10:21,109 --> 02:10:19,440
theory you know i don't like the the

3687
02:10:23,109 --> 02:10:21,119
non-competitive clusters

3688
02:10:25,510 --> 02:10:23,119
he's not really to be blamed for this i

3689
02:10:28,229 --> 02:10:25,520
suspect that his reasoning is that since

3690
02:10:30,390 --> 02:10:28,239
all neuron physics is computational

3691
02:10:33,189 --> 02:10:30,400
these basically takes a state and then

3692
02:10:35,350 --> 02:10:33,199
there is a transition between the states

3693
02:10:36,870 --> 02:10:35,360
the uh resolution for what consciousness

3694
02:10:38,709 --> 02:10:36,880
where it comes from

3695
02:10:40,870 --> 02:10:38,719
if the consciousness is enabling us to

3696
02:10:43,350 --> 02:10:40,880
do things that computers cannot needs to

3697
02:10:46,470 --> 02:10:43,360
be in an unknown area of physics and the

3698
02:10:48,149 --> 02:10:46,480
unknown area of physics that's left

3699
02:10:49,750 --> 02:10:48,159
reasoning in the same way as sherlock

3700
02:10:52,229 --> 02:10:49,760
holmes if you actually exclude all the

3701
02:10:54,310 --> 02:10:52,239
possibilities the only remaining thing

3702
02:10:56,069 --> 02:10:54,320
must be the truth right that's quantum

3703
02:10:57,990 --> 02:10:56,079
gravity because there is no generally

3704
02:11:00,149 --> 02:10:58,000
accepted theory of quantum gravity right

3705
02:11:02,069 --> 02:11:00,159
right and then it just so happens that

3706
02:11:05,589 --> 02:11:02,079
uh hammer off has this beautiful

3707
02:11:07,750 --> 02:11:05,599
psychedelic uh theory of uh how to get

3708
02:11:09,910 --> 02:11:07,760
the microtubules to have non-local

3709
02:11:11,669 --> 02:11:09,920
interactions that employ quantum

3710
02:11:13,669 --> 02:11:11,679
gravities in a way that nobody really

3711
02:11:16,629 --> 02:11:13,679
understands right right and this might

3712
02:11:17,910 --> 02:11:16,639
be in this corner and so uh they they

3713
02:11:20,790 --> 02:11:17,920
become friends

3714
02:11:22,310 --> 02:11:20,800
but i don't think that penrose theory is

3715
02:11:25,030 --> 02:11:22,320
exactly the same thing as hammer of

3716
02:11:26,229 --> 02:11:25,040
theory right right right and i'm not

3717
02:11:27,589 --> 02:11:26,239
talking about that more general theory

3718
02:11:29,350 --> 02:11:27,599
of consciousness i'm just talking about

3719
02:11:30,870 --> 02:11:29,360
his specific analysis of girdles

3720
02:11:32,550 --> 02:11:30,880
incompleteness theorem and what it means

3721
02:11:34,470 --> 02:11:32,560
for mathematics yes

3722
02:11:36,310 --> 02:11:34,480
and it's basically uh also something

3723
02:11:39,030 --> 02:11:36,320
that uh chomsky is affirming to in which

3724
02:11:41,030 --> 02:11:39,040
leads trump's chomsky to mysterianism so

3725
02:11:42,629 --> 02:11:41,040
basically they were confronted with the

3726
02:11:46,470 --> 02:11:42,639
same

3727
02:11:48,870 --> 02:11:46,480
that human brains can do things that

3728
02:11:51,109 --> 02:11:48,880
mathematics cannot

3729
02:11:53,510 --> 02:11:51,119
that mathematicians can make proofs that

3730
02:11:55,189 --> 02:11:53,520
computers and principle cannot make that

3731
02:11:57,510 --> 02:11:55,199
they discover that certain statements

3732
02:11:59,669 --> 02:11:57,520
are true that in a computable exomatic

3733
02:12:01,750 --> 02:11:59,679
system cannot be derived and this was

3734
02:12:03,990 --> 02:12:01,760
also what my question was pointing out

3735
02:12:05,669 --> 02:12:04,000
at uh how do you know that something is

3736
02:12:07,109 --> 02:12:05,679
true there if you cannot go show me a

3737
02:12:10,069 --> 02:12:07,119
sequence of steps

3738
02:12:12,629 --> 02:12:10,079
that that does it right and so uh

3739
02:12:13,430 --> 02:12:12,639
penrose and uh

3740
02:12:16,069 --> 02:12:13,440
thinks

3741
02:12:16,790 --> 02:12:16,079
that there must be unknown physics

3742
02:12:18,709 --> 02:12:16,800
and

3743
02:12:20,310 --> 02:12:18,719
um swamski things it cannot be

3744
02:12:23,830 --> 02:12:20,320
understood in principle which might be

3745
02:12:26,149 --> 02:12:23,840
the same thing at the end of the day

3746
02:12:27,669 --> 02:12:26,159
right like i guess we will have to go

3747
02:12:30,149 --> 02:12:27,679
i'll just say

3748
02:12:31,589 --> 02:12:30,159
our basic understanding of the axioms

3749
02:12:33,189 --> 02:12:31,599
itself

3750
02:12:35,109 --> 02:12:33,199
then maybe one thing to

3751
02:12:36,629 --> 02:12:35,119
how do i understand the basic axioms

3752
02:12:38,310 --> 02:12:36,639
that are the foundation of the

3753
02:12:39,990 --> 02:12:38,320
computational system where does that

3754
02:12:41,589 --> 02:12:40,000
understanding come from is that from

3755
02:12:43,030 --> 02:12:41,599
within the computational system or does

3756
02:12:44,870 --> 02:12:43,040
that ex does that escape the

3757
02:12:47,189 --> 02:12:44,880
computational system

3758
02:12:49,830 --> 02:12:47,199
from my own perspective it's

3759
02:12:51,990 --> 02:12:49,840
the case that my mind is constructing a

3760
02:12:53,830 --> 02:12:52,000
model of reality where the reality that

3761
02:12:56,149 --> 02:12:53,840
i found myself to be in is something

3762
02:12:57,669 --> 02:12:56,159
like a physics engine in which my own

3763
02:13:00,229 --> 02:12:57,679
conscious self

3764
02:13:02,709 --> 02:13:00,239
acts as a puppet as a simulacrum that is

3765
02:13:04,229 --> 02:13:02,719
being used to tell the story about an

3766
02:13:06,229 --> 02:13:04,239
intelligent agent

3767
02:13:08,310 --> 02:13:06,239
and i don't see any limitations in my

3768
02:13:10,550 --> 02:13:08,320
ability to make models that could

3769
02:13:13,430 --> 02:13:10,560
produce such an agent that would find

3770
02:13:14,870 --> 02:13:13,440
itself in this world and associate a set

3771
02:13:17,669 --> 02:13:14,880
of

3772
02:13:19,750 --> 02:13:17,679
valence presets with um

3773
02:13:21,030 --> 02:13:19,760
a garlic and another one

3774
02:13:21,830 --> 02:13:21,040
with sunlight

3775
02:13:23,270 --> 02:13:21,840
and

3776
02:13:25,990 --> 02:13:23,280
that happens entirely through the

3777
02:13:27,990 --> 02:13:26,000
relational nature of my unified model of

3778
02:13:30,069 --> 02:13:28,000
the universe that is being derived by

3779
02:13:32,470 --> 02:13:30,079
completely non nefarious computation

3780
02:13:34,550 --> 02:13:32,480
that are approximated in nervous systems

3781
02:13:37,270 --> 02:13:34,560
right so i don't see where i currently

3782
02:13:39,109 --> 02:13:37,280
stand uh that this doesn't work out

3783
02:13:40,870 --> 02:13:39,119
and i uh

3784
02:13:42,709 --> 02:13:40,880
very sympathetic to

3785
02:13:44,229 --> 02:13:42,719
when you don't see this

3786
02:13:46,069 --> 02:13:44,239
that it doesn't work out and that you

3787
02:13:48,310 --> 02:13:46,079
have to uh think that you have to find

3788
02:13:49,669 --> 02:13:48,320
the truth elsewhere and it could be that

3789
02:13:51,510 --> 02:13:49,679
i am going to change my mind in the

3790
02:13:54,229 --> 02:13:51,520
future when i stumble on something that

3791
02:13:56,229 --> 02:13:54,239
basically shows to me that that what i'm

3792
02:13:59,510 --> 02:13:56,239
intellectually trying doesn't work so as

3793
02:14:00,950 --> 02:13:59,520
far it seems to work and uh i appreciate

3794
02:14:02,390 --> 02:14:00,960
that we have this difference in our

3795
02:14:04,149 --> 02:14:02,400
perspectives because it's a very

3796
02:14:05,990 --> 02:14:04,159
productive and useful one to have

3797
02:14:07,910 --> 02:14:06,000
absolutely i've really appreciated the

3798
02:14:10,950 --> 02:14:07,920
the tenor of the conversation too very

3799
02:14:12,390 --> 02:14:10,960
very much so i i would just say my last

3800
02:14:13,830 --> 02:14:12,400
thought on this would be that

3801
02:14:16,149 --> 02:14:13,840
the what i would love to see from a

3802
02:14:17,910 --> 02:14:16,159
computational system on consciousness is

3803
02:14:19,750 --> 02:14:17,920
the associated association you just

3804
02:14:22,229 --> 02:14:19,760
talked about between the computation and

3805
02:14:24,830 --> 02:14:22,239
say the taste of garlic

3806
02:14:27,589 --> 02:14:24,840
is it principled or is it arbitrary that

3807
02:14:30,470 --> 02:14:27,599
association if it's arbitrary it's then

3808
02:14:34,069 --> 02:14:30,480
i'm not yes it's it's not arbitrary it's

3809
02:14:35,830 --> 02:14:34,079
related to uh the valence of the taste

3810
02:14:37,270 --> 02:14:35,840
receptors that you have so it might be

3811
02:14:39,589 --> 02:14:37,280
arbitrary in the sense that some people

3812
02:14:41,350 --> 02:14:39,599
hate garlic and other people love garlic

3813
02:14:42,950 --> 02:14:41,360
so the garlic will taste different to

3814
02:14:44,550 --> 02:14:42,960
them this means they will have a

3815
02:14:46,390 --> 02:14:44,560
different experience when they taste

3816
02:14:48,390 --> 02:14:46,400
garlic because the relations of the

3817
02:14:49,510 --> 02:14:48,400
taste of garlic will be different to the

3818
02:14:51,430 --> 02:14:49,520
uh

3819
02:14:53,830 --> 02:14:51,440
to the entire world model that they have

3820
02:14:55,589 --> 02:14:53,840
than they are to other people so they

3821
02:14:57,669 --> 02:14:55,599
basically the types of receptors that we

3822
02:14:59,510 --> 02:14:57,679
have in the valence that they imply

3823
02:15:02,149 --> 02:14:59,520
and the type of self model that we have

3824
02:15:03,830 --> 02:15:02,159
so in which way has the mind constructed

3825
02:15:06,149 --> 02:15:03,840
itself that is entangled with its

3826
02:15:08,470 --> 02:15:06,159
universe around it what is that boundary

3827
02:15:10,629 --> 02:15:08,480
what is the set points that are marking

3828
02:15:12,950 --> 02:15:10,639
this boundary that keeps the self stable

3829
02:15:14,709 --> 02:15:12,960
this is going to shape and alter the

3830
02:15:16,709 --> 02:15:14,719
perception but i don't think that there

3831
02:15:19,589 --> 02:15:16,719
is an intrinsic essence of perception

3832
02:15:22,550 --> 02:15:19,599
beyond the relations that we establish

3833
02:15:24,470 --> 02:15:22,560
between perceptual patterns and our

3834
02:15:25,910 --> 02:15:24,480
models of reality

3835
02:15:28,550 --> 02:15:25,920
so there'll always be the question why

3836
02:15:30,790 --> 02:15:28,560
should this computational

3837
02:15:32,790 --> 02:15:30,800
process

3838
02:15:34,790 --> 02:15:32,800
independent of valence be the taste of

3839
02:15:37,270 --> 02:15:34,800
garlic why couldn't have been the taste

3840
02:15:39,510 --> 02:15:37,280
of chocolate i would want a principled

3841
02:15:40,550 --> 02:15:39,520
answer to why is this computational

3842
02:15:42,470 --> 02:15:40,560
process

3843
02:15:44,390 --> 02:15:42,480
necessarily the taste of garlic why

3844
02:15:47,189 --> 02:15:44,400
isn't it the taste of chocolate because

3845
02:15:50,470 --> 02:15:47,199
one is affiliated to garlic and the

3846
02:15:52,310 --> 02:15:50,480
other one is associated to chocolate

3847
02:15:55,189 --> 02:15:52,320
but i'm talking about the the conscious

3848
02:15:57,430 --> 02:15:55,199
experience of the taste of oh well uh

3849
02:15:58,709 --> 02:15:57,440
chocolate is sweet for the most part and

3850
02:16:00,709 --> 02:15:58,719
garlic is not

3851
02:16:03,510 --> 02:16:00,719
so this is one of the dimensions in

3852
02:16:05,350 --> 02:16:03,520
which the features vary and uh sweetness

3853
02:16:06,709 --> 02:16:05,360
is perceived as a pleasant under some

3854
02:16:09,430 --> 02:16:06,719
circumstances when you need certain

3855
02:16:11,669 --> 02:16:09,440
types of nutrients and uh the soreness

3856
02:16:13,669 --> 02:16:11,679
and bitterness and sharpness of garlic

3857
02:16:15,910 --> 02:16:13,679
is associated with other things that you

3858
02:16:18,069 --> 02:16:15,920
might need or dislike at certain moments

3859
02:16:20,629 --> 02:16:18,079
so this the valence is crucial that you

3860
02:16:23,030 --> 02:16:20,639
get and they are basically um hundreds

3861
02:16:25,910 --> 02:16:23,040
or thousands or um tens of thousands of

3862
02:16:28,470 --> 02:16:25,920
valence dimensions that specify how we

3863
02:16:30,950 --> 02:16:28,480
perceive this texture of the pattern

3864
02:16:32,709 --> 02:16:30,960
that uh but the resolution the structure

3865
02:16:35,910 --> 02:16:32,719
of the pattern and so on is entirely

3866
02:16:37,110 --> 02:16:35,920
given by its its relational nature

3867
02:16:38,870 --> 02:16:37,120
i don't think that doesn't present

3868
02:16:40,549 --> 02:16:38,880
beyond the relations sound like well

3869
02:16:43,030 --> 02:16:40,559
this this is the story of a whole other

3870
02:16:44,389 --> 02:16:43,040
round one take care everyone thank you

3871
02:16:45,669 --> 02:16:44,399
so much

3872
02:16:47,270 --> 02:16:45,679
thank you too

3873
02:16:49,509 --> 02:16:47,280
good dog you enjoyed this thank you very

3874
02:16:51,349 --> 02:16:49,519
much it's plenty of fun and the audience

3875
02:16:54,389 --> 02:16:51,359
is all saying thank you as well i think

3876
02:16:55,910 --> 02:16:54,399
there were about a thousand people well

3877
02:16:57,910 --> 02:16:55,920
thank you very much

3878
02:17:00,549 --> 02:16:57,920
thanks everyone thank you joshua please

3879
02:17:02,150 --> 02:17:00,559
send me the mp3 if you don't mind

3880
02:17:04,150 --> 02:17:02,160
okay dawn i don't know if you still are

3881
02:17:07,429 --> 02:17:04,160
recording yours bye-bye

3882
02:17:08,709 --> 02:17:07,439
okay bye-bye take care

3883
02:17:10,309 --> 02:17:08,719
thank you all thank you all thank you

3884
02:17:12,230 --> 02:17:10,319
all so much for being here

3885
02:17:14,709 --> 02:17:12,240
it was plenty of fun there's plenty to

3886
02:17:16,469 --> 02:17:14,719
talk about for a round two whenever that

3887
02:17:19,750 --> 02:17:16,479
occurs maybe toward the end of the

3888
02:17:24,070 --> 02:17:19,760
summer or the middle of summer we'll see

3889
02:17:27,669 --> 02:17:25,990
the podcast is now finished if you'd

3890
02:17:30,870 --> 02:17:27,679
like to support conversations like this

3891
02:17:33,790 --> 02:17:30,880
then do consider going to patreon.com

3892
02:17:38,629 --> 02:17:36,870
j-a-i-m-u-n-g-a-l that is kurt jaimungle

3893
02:17:40,230 --> 02:17:38,639
it's support from the patrons and from

3894
02:17:41,830 --> 02:17:40,240
the sponsors that allow me to do this